21st Manchesters

[Andy]

Could any "Manchester" expert tell me where 21st were in action on the above date? I know that over 100 men were killed in action on this day, but I am not sure where they were fighting.

Cheers, Andy Fitton.

[Chris_Baker]

On that date the Bn moved up from La Clytte (today called De Klijte), to Lock 8. In the evening the Bn then moved up to assembly positions preparatory to an attack to be made next day, south of Gheluvelt near Lewis House and Berry Cotts.

[Andy]

Cheers Chris,

a reply in a matter of minutes!

I should have said that I have the info you gave me. I was wondering how the Bn lost so many men when they were only getting ready for an attack next day.

Do you think they were they caught by shelling or some other disaster?

A distant relative on my wife's side died on this day.

Regards, Andy.

[John_Hartley]

Andy

My guess is that the date is simply recorded wrong (no doubt, in the chaos of the battle). Soldiers Died gives 107 for 24/10, 1 for 25/10 and 2 for 26/10.

Yet the Battalion history describes the attack in the early morning of the 26th as

""A" company on the left came under exceedingly heavy enfilding machine gun fire from Lewis House and the coy was practically decimated. B Coy on the right, came under heavy MG fire from Berry Cotts. The survivors of these two coys. dug themselves in as well as they were able"

Quoting from the war diary, the history states (about A & B coys) "But nothing is known of their fate and no trac can be found of them, although they are reported to have gone.

History continues "C Coy had moved off at zero hour, passing over Power trench where elements of D Coy were found moppoing up. The advance continued until they came under severere MG fire. The fire was so devastating a character that the force was reduced to four men only, who established a post".

NOT THE SORT OF DAY THAT ONLY LEAVES TWO FATALTIES !!

John

[Andy]

Hi John, good to hear from you.

I think you may have hit the nail on the head, it seemed to me there was a mistake somewhere.

The next question is, of course....where were Berry Cotts and Lewis House?

Best Regards, Andy.

[John_Hartley]

Wotcha, mate. How's it going? You retired yet? I finished last friday! Have you seen the North West get-together post?

Not come across them before but they must be somewhere around the Menin Road and Gheluvelt. The history refers to them as the "old stumbling block". Someone (Jan/AOK) is bound to know.

John

[Chris_Baker]

I've heard Jan actually lives in Berry Cotts...

[Chris_Baker]

You might find this useful too. From the war diary of 1st South Staffords in 91st Brigade. They moved up from Voormezele as the 21st Mancs were on their way from La Clytte.

"Operation orders:

X Corps is to co-operate with the main attack further north, by attacking Gheluvelt and Polderhoek Wood. The role of the 7th Division: to capture Gheluvelt, some ground along Zandvoorde spur, and so secure Tower Hamlets ridge.

Battalion orders: B Coy on right front, D in centre, C on left. 2 platoons of A Coy to support C, the remainder of A to support B and D. 1 Coy of 22nd Manchesters attached, whose objective will be to take over battalion front line.

Barrage 150 yards in front for 4 minutes, then creep 200 yards in 12 minutes, then 200 in 8, then 100 per 12 minutes to Red Protective barrage.

Consolidation will be carried out, to obtain a good observation and defence line, to obtain a line of postst from The Mound (J.26.b.0.8) to Berry Cotts to Spur (J.27.a.7.5), plus an intermediate line of posts from Hamp Farm (J.27.a.17.55 to 35.76).

21st Manchesters will be on our left. 19th Division on our right will not attack.

4 Vickers guns will advance with battalion, 2 to rear of Berry Cotts, 2 in the old front line.

4 Stokes mortars under Lt W.C.Conley MC.

Advanced Battalion HQ under 2/Lt G.A.C.Sheffield, will be in old front line.

Signals will, on reaching Red and Blue Lines, show Red and Green Very. Red and White flares, if called by Contact Aeroplane.

SOS will be rifle grenade parachute flares showing red over green over yellow.

Operations narrative:

Battalion formed up without incident, in spite of the moon.

At zero, there was heavy enemy machine gun fire, and a medium barrage on the whole ridge, especially severe on Battalion HQ.

C Coy on left progressed, with heavy casualties, until 50 yards from Berry Cotts. There they encountered very strong opposition, using stick bombs. The Coy were swept by machine guns from Berry Cotts and Lewis House. Mud had rendered rifles and Lewis guns useless. C Coy strength was down to 1 officer and about 20 other ranks, who lay out in shell holes.

D Coy met very strong opposition from Hamp Farm and cross-fire. They only got 50 yards from our front line.

B Coy, protected a little by the lie of the ground, made more progress. They attacked the Mound, with heavy fighting. Both officers and all NCOs were killed or wounded. The remainder of the Coy, now under a Corporal, carried their objective.

The enemy retired, and positions were consolidated. Runners were sent back for reinforcements, but all became casualties. No message got to Battalion HQ. The remnants of B Coy fell back after dusk, destroying one machine gun before doing so.

Casualties:

Killed in action:

2/Lt (A/Capt) W.H.Curry

2/Lt R.S.Pullen

2/Lt D.S.Glaze

2/Lt G.A.C.Sheffield

2/Lt V.Hield

2/Lt W.H.Noakes

38 other ranks

Wounded:

2/Lt S.H.Houle

136 other ranks

Missing:

2/Lt H.E.Poulton

91 other ranks"

[AOK4]

Hello,

I don't live in Berry Cotts, but I do know a lot of people around Geluveld.

It is true that the British attack on 26 October 1917 was a real disaster. Battalions South of the Menin Road got mixed up during the attack (one of the reasons LtCol Chadamax gives for the failure of the attack of 21/Manchester) and all tried to attack the real strongpoint there, Lewis House. Other reasons for the high casualties: the mud. The soldiers of 2/Border, just South of the Menin Road, are up to their hips in the mud and are sitting ducks for the German machine guns.

Casualties South of the Menin Road that day are: 1/South Staffordshire 44 killed, 141 wounded, 93 missing, 21/Manchester 24 dead, 175 wounded, 94 missing, 2/Queen's 24 dead, 198 wounded, 78 missing, 2/Border 11 dead, 176 wounded, 126 missing, 2/Gordon Highlanders 20 dead, 235 wounded, 91 missing and 22/Manchester 50 casualties.

German unit involved was the 24. (Saxon) ID, supported by the 18. Reserve-Division. IR 139 tells that even the day after British stretcher bearers were still searching the battlefield for wounded soldiers of the attack.

The German regiment around the Menin Road (IR 176) fires between 21 and 28 October 1917 59,700 rounds of rifle ammunition and 63,200 rounds of machin gun ammunition.

Regards,

Jan

[Andy]

Chris, John and Jan...thanks Guys, all the info I could want!

John, I'll email you off forum.

Jan, if you are around from Thursday 2/10 to Saturday 4/10 (next week) I will be at the Menin Gate each evening. If you fancy a chat please let me know.

Thanks again, Andy Fitton.

PS I may have time to ask about 1st Cheshires before I go out, watch this forum.