Death Certificate

[Max]

Hello Everyone

I have just received the death certificate for my GGrandfather.

I am a little confused about two of the entries. The date of death is given as "on or since 1/10/1915", what does this mean?. Also the cause of death is given as "reported dead", is this just a catch all?

Andy

[CROONAERT]

Andy.

It could mean that your G.grandfather was reported "missing" on 1/10/15. Subsequent information may have revealed that he actually died (sometime between the 1st and the date that conformation was recieved), hence the issue of a death certificate.

I have the papers to a similar story (actually the telegrams to his mother). The first (dated 5th June 1917) reports him "missing" as from 3rd May 1917.This included am explaination that it doesn't actually mean that he is dead. The second reports him Killed in action on "3rd May or after".This letter is dated 30th June 1917. The final one (Dec.1917) notifies his mother of his grave location. From this, I deduce that he was only confirmed dead between 5th June and 30th June, even though he probably died (and his grave is dated) on 3rd May.

Do you know the actual issue date of the (original) death certificate?

Dave.

PS. I see that in your case, there was no "happy" outcome and that your G.Grandfather remained "missing", being commemorated on the Loos memorial. If it isn't the case of someone reporting seeing him killed, maybe death certificates were issued after a set time period of a man being missing? Have you checked with the Red Cross archives? The Australian ones are on line and make some interesting reading. Unfortunately (as is usually the case!), the British ones aren't, so you may have to contact them.

[Max]

Hello Dave

Thanks for your response.

My Grandad always said that his Dad had been killed on 1st October, he didn't say anything about a period of waiting whilst his death was confirmed. I think that the remark "reported killed" in the cause of death column would indicate that someone had witnessed his death.

Thanks again,

Andy

[Guest Hussar]

Dave,

Do you have a link to the archive site?

I tried a search but couldn't find anything to do with WW1.

[CROONAERT]

Dave,

Do you have a link to the archive site?

I tried a search but couldn't find anything to do with WW1.

(Australian only) try this...Australian Red Cross

Dave.

[Guest Pete Wood]

That is an incredible resource, Dave.

I typed in 'Smith' to test it, and chose the fourth guy down (Banks-Smith, Sydney Harold) as he was in the Aussie Flying Corps. I thought that this might be interesting.

Indeed it was. Some 12 pages listing the circumstances of his death, and his pilot. Okay, some pages were repeated - but I didn't mind that as much of it was typed copies of the original hand-written reports.

What I found curious, was that there was also some misfiled notes in Smith-Banks' file - relating to 3899 Sgt Joseph White Ross KIA 26.3.18. I checked Ross's file, but all the info is there in his file also.

Do I take it that the Red Cross files for soldiers of other nationalities survive?

I seem to remember that they do, but you have to write to the Red Cross and pay for them? But can someone provide the contact details and costs?

If the other Red Cross records survive and they are of the same quality, I think it would be worth paying for. The Ozzie files that I have just read have first hand accounts for troops that would otherwise never get a mention - in the war diary or subsequent unit histories.

Just amazing!!

[Guest Pete Wood]

What I find even more exciting about this archive is that many of the witness accounts are from people who survived the war.

The witnesses are named. Their contact details are often listed - even the hospital that they are in (if applicable) when they gave evidence.

Has the AWM any plans to cross-list the witnesses named in these files?

Wow, the hairs are standing up on the back of my neck.

[Michael]

Wow, there ARE British papers in there ! I searched for West Kents and came up with a 2nd Lieut (7th Bn) and a L/Cpl (1st Bn)

Take a look

Lance Corporal Willoughby

Michael

[Terry_Reeves]

A couple of months ago I posted some details of how the BRCS carried out their work in respect of the wounded and missing, after seeing some private family papers relating to the death of an officer whose body was lost. I have since found more information that may be useful background to this subject.

The BRCS started their work in this area in 1915. They employed teams of "searchers" at first line hospitals in the UK and at base hospitals and rest camps abroad. About 1,200 searchers were employed in the UK. They were drawn from many walks of life and included barristers, solicitors, retired civil servants and army officers, clergymen and lay people. The BRCS recommended at the end of the war that retired or serving army officers should not be used for various reasons, one of them being that soldiers were often reluctant to speak to them.

A fairly sophisticated interview process was developed, which required the searchers to gain the confidence of the men they were interviewing. The teams of searchers found that the more relaxed atmosphere of YMCA huts ect, provided some good results. Where men were still attached to military units, CO's would parade men at certain times of the day for interview. This relied on a deal of cooperation from NCO' s in explaining to their men the objectives of the enquiry and removing any suspicions from their minds.

Men would be shown lists of the missing appropriate to their unit. Those who had some information would be then be interviewed and asked the following preliminary questions with regard to the casualty:

Place date and time of the attack

Distance away from what he saw

How far away the casualty was from our, or the enemy's lines

Whether light or dark

Who held the ground after the attack.

Questions were then asked in an attempt to ensure the correct identity of the casulty.

The missings man's number and platoon or his initials or christian name.

Where he lived

His previous occupation

Where he had trained and how long he had ben with his battalion.

How long the informant had known him.

A description of his appearance

The dangers of hearsay were recognised. If the informant said that another man had also witnesed the incident, the name was taken so that he could be interviewed as well. Nor was it good enough for a man to say "I believe he was killed," or "it is generally known he was wounded".

Once these preliminaries were dealt with the informant was then asked to describe the events in detail. A great deal of effort went to establishing the right man was being talked about, for example did he have any musical talent or sporting ability, things that could be verified by another source.

The Red Cross letters to the family I mentioned at the start of this post reflect much of this in one form or another and made fascinating and illuminating reading.

Whether these files still exist in the Red Cross archives I know not, but they did form the basis for the BRCS and Order of St John Enquiry List.

[Clive Maier]

What a wonderful resource that Australian Red Cross Society enquiry bureau is. Many thanks to Dave for drawing attention to it. Once again, one can only marvel at the dedication and the open attitude of the authorities in Australia and in Canada too.

The memorial I am working on has five Australians, all lads who emigrated. Two of these have no known grave and sure enough, the Australian Red Cross records list both.

For Tom Bellingham, the information is chilling. Sergeant Parker testified thus.

“I had Bellingham with me at Pozieres. On the 25th July 1916 we were in the village making an advance when his head was blown off. I saw it happen.” Others were a little more tactful about it but I think the sergeant was right to put the true facts on the record. I am sure he would have invented something more comforting for the next of kin. Or maybe he felt it was time for the people at home to know what the war was like.

The other case, that of Archie Brotherhood, illustrates the fog of war. One witness said he was shot through the hip by a bullet and died unexpectedly at the dressing station. Two others said he was hit in the back by a machine gun bullet and died at a casualty clearing station or dressing station. Another said he was killed instantly by a shell while manning his machine gun. Another said he was hit in the spine by a shell fragment and died about ten minutes later. Another said he was wounded, but not seriously, and walked to the dressing station where he was killed by a shell.

[nshighlander]

Hi

Does the CDN Red Cross this kind of site?I have look but know luck.

Cheers

Dave

[Guest Hussar]

Dave,

Thanks for the link, fascinating stuff.

[stevew]

Dave,

Do you have a link to the archive site?

I tried a search but couldn't find anything to do with WW1.

(Australian only) try this...Australian Red Cross

Dave.

Excellent Link Dave!