Flight Commander W.E. Sheel

[cameldriver]

Hello all

I am new to the forum. I am from New York and collect all types of mateial concerning the air services in WWI. I have a cigarette case that has left me puzzled. If anyone can help out on this, I'd be appreciative, and promise to come back with more interesting questions in the future. I will also be happy to lend my limited expertise to any other forumite.

The case is inscribed:

"Presented to Flight Commander W.E. Sheel by his brother officers of "A" Naval Squadron, France, June 1918."

Besides coming up empty on W.E. Sheel, the following questions arise:

1-By June 1918 there were no naval squadrons, since the RAF formed on April 1.

2-Squadrons had numerical designations, not letters.

3-Flight commander was not an RAF rank

Even with all these questions, the case appears to be the real thing. Thanks for any help on this.

[Guest Pete Wood]

Cameldriver, can you post a pic of this case please.

Are you sure it doesn't say 1916, instead of 1918?

I'm guessing that his name is William and that he may have had a relation called Harold (officer in the Lincs TF).

[cameldriver]

It definitely says 1918. I am attempting to post photos (not at all good with computers), but I don't know that it will add to anything.

[cameldriver]

Sorry, that's outside of case. Here's the inside with inscription.

[michaeldr]

Besides coming up empty on W.E. Sheel, the following questions arise:

1-By June 1918 there were no naval squadrons, since the RAF formed on April 1.

2-Squadrons had numerical designations, not letters.

3-Flight commander was not an RAF rank

Don't be put off by the squadron being designated by a letter, not a number, as letters were sometimes used.

See Brad King's book on the RNAS where in the chapter '1915-1917 Aegean blockade' he mentions A, B, C & D.

Interestingly, at Thasos "A group of French fliers were attached to them and the combined unit was wearily designated 'A' flight."

B Squadron was stationed at Mitylene

C Squadron was at Imbros

D Squadron was at Stavros

Regards

Michael D.R.

If I'd been smarter, then before I posted the above, I would have turned to the back of the Brad King book and seen the "RNAS Order of Battle 31 March 1918" which gives

2 Wing (Mudros)

A/Wing Captain R. Gordon DSO

A Squadron (Thasos) Pup/Camel

B Squadron (Mitylene) Camel

C Squadron (Imbros) Camel

D Squadron (Stavros) Camel

E Flight (Hadzi Junas) 11/2 Strutter

F Squadron (Mudros) Camel

G Squadron (Mudros) 11/2 Strutter

Z (Greek) (Thasos) 11/2 Strutter/Camel

Edited 27 October , 2003 by michaeldr

[Terry Denham]

I think the above is a good example of this part of the Royal Navy being slow to give up its traditional designations and ranks.

Even though the RAF was formed on 1st April, the component parts did not change overnight and traditions lingered on. I can imagine that the gift illustrated above bears the old style designations as they were those that Sheel and his comrades had used for most of their time together.

[cameldriver]

Thanks for the input. I can understand that traditions died hard, and that might explain the reference to a naval squadron and the naval rank. However, I don't believe the reference to "A" squadron can refer to the Mediteranean based squadron, since the inscription specifically mentions France. Moreover, I have been unable to come up with any info on WE Sheel. I would expect someone with the rank of Fl. Commander would be listed someplace.

[Greenwoodman]

I would have said that Flight Commander was an appointment and not a rank. The Flight Commander would carry an official rank as well as the job title.

When I was in the RAF, a Flight Commander of a flight in a flying squadron carried the rank of Squadron Leader, and a Squadron Commander carried the rank of Wing Commander - that's inflation for you!

[Terry Denham]

An answer!

From "Royal Navy Aircraft Serials & Units 1911-1919" by Ray Sturtivant & Gordon Page

In the chapter entitled 'Naval Aircraft Units 1911-1919' it lists all RN air units and includes amongst others under the section 'Naval Wings' -

A Sqdn 1 Wing

Formed ex-A Flight at St Pol 01.03.16 (Comprised No.1 Flt, 2-Str Nieuport (recce); No.2 Flt, 1-str Nieuport (fighting & anti-Zeppelin); Bombing Flt (temp attd), Caudron (sub patrol & bomb dropping); Furnes 10.06.16 (16.06.16?); Became known as Detached Sqdn 03.07.16 then 1 Sqdn 06.12.16

COs - S/Cdr I.T.Courtney by 20.03.15; F/Cdr F.K.Haskins DSC 01.03.16; S/Cdr F.K.Haskins DSC 10.06.16. Became 1 Sqdn 06.12.16

AIRCRAFT - 504, M Farman, Henri Farman, Nieuport, Nieuport Scout (1 & 2 Flts), Nieuport 12 (2 Flt), Triplane N500 (2 Flt).

Copied word for word.

Even though the gift is dated June 1918, it does not follow that their period of service together was at that time. It could have been earlier in the war.

[michaeldr]

Many Happy Returns of the Day, Richard

Re; Flight Commander

You have to make allowances for the RNAS; they were different and proud of it!

They had Watch Keeping, Liberty Men, the Master-at-Arms was 'Jaunty' and they would ask for "Permission to go ashore, Sir" even though they were many miles from the sea.

Their officer ranks included:

Flight Sub-Lieutenant

Flight Lieutenant

Flight Commander

Squadron Commander

Wing Commander

Wing Captain

The Flight Commander's cuff had the two rings of a naval lieutenant, surmounted by an eagle with a star (pip) above that

[info from "Royal Naval Air Service 1912-1918" by Brad King]

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Frank_East]

No 1 Squadron RNAS became 201 Squadron RAF on April 1 1918. All fools day

At the time of the presentation to W E Sheels, No 201 Squadron was based at Noeux-les -Auxi equipped with Camels which had been their aircraft since December 1917.

W.C C.G. Jefford in his "RAF Squadrons" lists the airfield location as Nouex les Auxi which could be a typing error as it does not appear to exist. (Noeux les Auxi is very close to the Auxi les Chateau airfield and not very far from the grave of James McCudden.)

The Squadron was awarded two VCs during the Great War.

Flt Sub Lieutenant R.A.J. Warneford won his VC when in No 1 Squadron RNAS, he downed a Zeppelin (LZ 37) by bombing it from above on June 7 1915 over Bruges,the first Zeppelin to be brought down by an aircraft.

Major W.G. Barker won the VC on October 27 1918 when he took on a large enemy formation and after shooting down several was shot down, crashed and survived although badly injured.Barker was a seconded Canadian instructor who requested combat experience at the front and was on his last day of secondment to 201 Squadron when he won the VC. Flying Camels accounted for 41 enemy aircraft during his time on the Western Front.

After the Great War and nearly 10 years disbanded, No 201 Squadron was reformed in 1929 and has continued in a maritime role ever since apart from a two year period when it swopped its flying boats for Shackletons.

Currently equipped with Nimrod MR2s and operating out of RAF Kinloss it shares its Maritime Role with Search and Rescue duties.

Looking at the CWGC database,it appears that W.E Sheel survived the war which prompts the question how did the case pass out of his family?.

Regarding the appointment of Flight Commander.In WW2 the appointment was held by a Flight Lieutenant in a Fighter Squadron,there normally being two flights with a Squadron Leader being the Squadron CO.It may still be the case.

In WW2 Bomber Command the Squadron CO was a Wing Commander with the squadron having three flights all headed by a Squadron Leader.In post war Bomber Command, in my time a bomber squadron (piston jobs) was headed by a Squadron Leader with two flights headed by Flight Lieutenants reflecting the vast reduction in aircraft allocated to a squadron from wartime to peacetime.I notice that the present No 201 Squadron is headed by a Wing Commander.

Regards

Frank East

[Dolphin]

I think that Flight Comander W E Sheel may have served in No 216 Squadron RAF. The unit started off in the UK as a detached Flight from No 7 Sqn RNAS in September 1917, equipped with Handley-Page 0/400 aircraft in a night bombing role. It was re-titled 'A' Squadron RNAS when it moved to France on 5 October 1917. On 1 January 1918 it was re-titled again to become No 16 Sqn RNAS, and then became No 216 Sqn RAF with the amalgamation on 1 April 1918. It was then part of the RAF's 41 Wing, 8th Brigade.

The use of the old RNAS rank of Flight Commander and the unit's original RNAS title in the cigarette case inscription could suggest that some, at least of the No 216 Sqn personnel may have looked back on their pre-RAF time as 'the good old days'. Alternatively, perhaps the presenters were emphasising that that they had been together since the 'A' Squadron times.

[Frank_East]

Dolphin,

It would appear that there were three squadrons with the designation A Squadron RNAS, all active at the same time in early and mid 1916. These were the donor squadrons to form No1 Squadron RNAS ,No 4 Squadron RNAS and No 6 Squadron RNAS. However W.E Sheel can only have served, as you suggest, with No 216 Squadron RAF /No 16 Squadron RNAS. which came into being from another A Squadron RNAS designated as such from 5 October 1917 in France. No 216 Squadron RAF would have been based at Ochey (still an airfield, a few kms south of Toul and ideal for raiding occupied territory) at the time of the presentation, being there from 9 May 1918.

No 216 Squadron had its origins in the Dover Defence Flight formed at the beginning of 1914 becoming No 4 Sqn RNAS in early 1915,then No 4 Wing in mid 1915 which then split into A Squadron and B Squadron in mid 1916,to form No 6 Squadron RNAS and No 7 Squadron RNAS. respectively.The latter squadron formed two detachments 7A Squadron which became No 14 Squadron RNAS and the fourth A Squadron RNAS (with its transformation as you outline) on 5 October 1917.

Regarding No 216 Squadron,my attention was drawn to a request many years ago of a Wing Commander T.E.W.Browne who was the author of "The Skyline is a Promise",an account of "No 216 Squadron which began as Naval A in October 1917." He was asking for personal memories "before it is too late" of those who served on the squadron between October 1917 and November 1918. The book could be an interesting source of information on W E Sheel.

Regards

Frank East

[Dolphin]

Frank

We have to wonder why the RNAS kept using the same title for different units. Clearly there was no consideration given to the people who would try to study the War nearly ninety years later!

Perhaps the same title was re-used as the rubber stamps for addresses and the like had already been made and it seemed a shame to waste them.

Cheers

Dolphin

[michaeldr]

We have to wonder why the RNAS kept using the same title for different units

King describes the RNAS system as "Byzantine"

I think this is nice piece of English understatement

Regards

Michael D.R.

[Frank_East]

From an historical point of view,the RAF in WW2 achieved perfection in their structure nomenclature. At the time of the vast expansion of of the Royal Air Force each new Squadron was designated with a unique number within a block which extended to 699 according to the overall formal directive which apparently holds stead today.These unique numbers were further allocated and developed in sub blocks to accomodate the various units which operated under the RAF Command structure such as Dominion airforces and those of occupied Western Europe.It has to be said that regarding squadron nomenclature the first steps to a unique system took place when the RFC and RNAS were absorbed into the Royal Air Force on 1 April 1918.

The directive was the "Secret Document 155" issued on 5 April 1939 which is the formal authority for the formation and disbandment of air units of all three services and accomodates squadron allocation up to, a still to be informed, No 1999 Squadron.

We should be thankful to the originator of this document for making historical air research that much easier than the laissez faire system of squadron nomenclature of the earlier years.Still we cannot be too critical as the real focus was put on beating the enemy in the air as well as land and sea.

Regards

Frank East

[michaeldr]

I'm sure your right Frank; in 14-18 it was just not very high on the priority scale.

Looking back from our well ordered (?) world however, one can't help wondering if it didn't give them the odd headache from time to time.

Its been great following the sleuthing on this one

Regards

Michael D.R.

[cameldriver]

Regarding No 216 Squadron,my attention was drawn to a request many years ago of a Wing Commander T.E.W.Browne who was the author of "The Skyline is a Promise",an account of "No 216 Squadron which began as Naval A in October 1917." He was asking for personal memories "before it is too late" of those who served on the squadron between October 1917 and November 1918. The book could be an interesting source of information on W E Sheel.

Regards

Frank East

I will purchase a copy of Browne's book immediately, however I see that WWI is dealt with in only 18 pages, so I don't know if I'll strike paydirt.

Thanks to all who have helped on this. I'm still hoping to get a response from the Flight Commander's grandson filling me in on all of his service.

[duckman]

Major W.G. Barker won the VC on October 27 1918 when he took on a large enemy formation and after shooting down several was shot down, crashed and survived although badly injured.Barker was a seconded Canadian instructor who requested combat experience at the front and was on his last day of secondment to 201 Squadron when he won the VC. Flying Camels accounted for 41 enemy aircraft during his time on the Western Front.

Just to clarify, Barker served with a couple of Camel squadrons in Italy, and was credited with 46 victories by the end of his service there. He was posted to the Home Establishment as an instructor, but requested some flying time in France to familiarise himself with combat conditions there, as they were profoundly different to Italy. On the last day of his secondment (while flying a Sopwith Snipe) he met several formations of Fokker DVII's (estimated at up to 50 a/c all up). He was wounded several times, and was credited with four kills (bringing his total to 50), before crashing. He was presented with the VC in mid-1919.

http://www.theaerodrome.com/aces/canada/barker.html

Further info on Sheel might be found by posting the question at The Aerodrome. These sorts of questions are their meat and drink.

www.theaerodrome.com

[cameldriver]

Further info on Sheel might be found by posting the question at The Aerodrome. These sorts of questions are their meat and drink.

www.theaerodrome.com

Thanks. I've already tried the Aerodrome. While I got some info, the resonse here has been far more encouraging.

[Frank_East]

Cameldriver.

A peep at "The skyline is a promise"does not reveal any reference to Flight Commander W.E. Skeel.

Wing Commander Tom Browne joined No 216 Squadron at Ochey at the end of June 1918.Operations flying induction was for new pilots to act as Gunners to experienced pilots.Due to the cockpit configuration of the HP 0-400 there was no chance of inflight tuition other than to the Observer. Browne flew with a Lieut C.E.V. Wilkins.

The C.O was Squadron Commander H Buss D.S.C.who described a Canadian Observer who ran through the officers huts after a hearty mess night brandishing a pair of loaded revolvers and who was only restained from firing them with difficulty as "that boisterous young Canadian". The front line was just up the road but was recorded as a peaceful sector.A front line sentry turned back a strolling officer in case he might be seen from the German trenches. "One might have a war again" the sentry said shaking his head.

The only Flight Commander mentioned was Robert Halley,rank not indicated whose Observer was named as Bobby Reece,again no rank indicated.

Does not tell us what we want to know but is worth reading for £8. (£2 originally.)

Regards

Frank East