Jock Bruce Posted 30 October , 2003 Share Posted 30 October , 2003 I have a soldier in 1/5 Seaforth who is described in the unit war diary as having 'accidentally shot himself dead' and in the private diary of an officer in another company as 'shot through the eye while cleaning his rifle'. I cannot think how you could accidentaly shoot youself in the head while cleaning a SMLE - can anyone more familiar with the weapon suggest how this is possible? Jock Bruce Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Killratio Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Jock, The only two ways I can see it happening: 1.If you did not have the bayonet fixed, 2.had the rifle cocked and safety off 3.then put the butt on the ground, 4.held the hand guard in one hand OR held the trigger guard 5.leaned over the muzzle. 6.bumped the trigger whilst cleaning. Due to the length of the rifle it is quite a reach. or 2 above then accidentally drop the rifle, trigger the action and get very unlucky. I'll leave the likelyhood (let alone the wisdom) of the scenarios up to others more qualified than I regards Darryl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Mate, The first thing we are instructed in is that "an unloaded gun kills more then a loaded gun". Simply put if you think its unloaded your probily wrong. The amount of soldiers in the records who shot them selves or were shot by their mates, all by accident would surprise. And if you think about it, young soldiers with little training, scared and anyone of a number of presures on them. I am surprised there were not more. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hill 60 Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Many years ago, when I used to do a lot of shooting on various farmer's fields around my village, a friend of mine accidently killed himself with his shotgun. He caught the trigger on some barbed-wire around his dad's farm and shot himself in the head; it is easily done when you get complacent with your weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Birch Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Accidental shootings became became quite a problem in the Home Guard during WW2. As others have pointed out it was usually a result of thinking the gun was unloaded. Not many Home Guard died as a result of enemy action, a substantial number died from self inflicted accidents or the thoughtless actions of colleagues. I once lived in a Dorset village where I knew an old farm hand who was the sole survivor of a section which had gone out to "have a look" at a German bomb, one of a stick dumped by a lost bomber. It seems that the NCO in charge had kicked it to show the others that it was safe.... Tim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchwalker Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 The thing is when you are cleaning your riflr you clears it the c.o makes sure its clear you then remove the bolt and enter the pull rope with the 4by 2 into the breach then pulling it from the muzzle. so killed whilst cleaning impossible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Sorry mate NO! Your argument depends on whether the action has been rendered in-operative and the soldier was cleaning the barrel. I have personal experience of this sort of thing when I was serving in the army with this weapon. I spent one of my postings at the MODPCTA, where amongst our inventory we had a dozen or so SMLEs. During a cleaning session we had an ND which thank the good lord missed everyone, although didn't do much for nervous system. I as senior NCO was involved in the subsequent investigation. The culprit was actually cleaning off the foresight and greasing the bayonet mount at the time, when, according to him he dropped the weapon on the butt plate and bang! How it came to be loaded with the bolt in place was never satisfactorily established. One thing that was in his favour was that the weapon was found to have a hair trigger. I will go no further suffice to say accidents do occur and despite the best and most rigorous safety procedures you will always find one idiot who will break them, not only endangering himself but also his mates. JB - I will give you more details next time I see you. Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BeppoSapone Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 I have a soldier in 1/5 Seaforth who is described in the unit war diary as having 'accidentally shot himself dead' and in the private diary of an officer in another company as 'shot through the eye while cleaning his rifle'. I cannot think how you could accidentaly shoot youself in the head while cleaning a SMLE - can anyone more familiar with the weapon suggest how this is possible? Jock Bruce I don't know anything about this particular case, but have quite often read of soldiers committing suicide. Usually when they had a "Dear John" letter, or some 'kind' friend or neighbour wrote and told them what their wife was up to. As attempting suicide was illegal I am sure that a lot of suicides were put down as accidents etc, esp if the man in question was a Catholic. Although this happened in WW2 one of my fathers army stories concerned a suicide. He said it was about the closest he came to being killed during his army service. He on his bunk in a nissen hut when a stream of bullets came through the wall. Luckily for him he was actually in bed rather than sitting up! A man in the next hut had committed suicide with a bren gun. He lay on his bunk and put the muzzle in his mouth and pulled the trigger with his toe! I believe that he had just heard that his wife had gone off with an American. He must have been in a very bad way to kill himself like that - one round of .303 would kill you, but up to 30 rounds could kill a lot of your mates as well! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 31 October , 2003 Author Share Posted 31 October , 2003 Thanks to everyone who replied - being a mere lad I have no practical knowledge of the SMLE. There is, I think, something 'whiffy' about this guys death - that may be coloured by the fact that the one instance of 'accident whilst cleaning a weapon' I encountered during my own service was pretty definitely suicide, but the presentation of his death in local materials is a wee bit odd. Ian - I will bring a nice comfy sandbag to Kew Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 31 October , 2003 Share Posted 31 October , 2003 JB, Coffee on you tomorrow mate! And what's this about being a mere laddie Cheers - E Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest stevebec Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 After every accident there was a report done on the subject. I have many from the service records of AIF soldiers in the Camel Corps. There a an interesting sourse of information on how such an accident can happen. The one I like is a soldier on guard was given a clip of five ball rounds and only to be placed in his bandilier and not to be used unless ordered to. No sooner did the NCO continue to post the remaining guards when a shot rang out from the young soldiers post behind him. They all raced back to find the soldier in the ground bleeding from his hand. There was some panic as they beleive to be under fire but there was no other fire and the soldier during first aid said he had shot himself while cleaning the gun. During the inqury he said that he had didn't remember loading the gun or firing. He was found not guilty of SIW by reasons of Temperary Mental unstability. He continue to serve threw out the war. So you never know, a young soldier in camp with maybe his first rounds in a dangours area playing with his weapon loads it when he shouldn't then "Bang". I also have one of a soldier who shot his mate with a captured pistol when he was showing his mates how it works. S.B Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Jock, The only two ways I can see it happening: Three, Horseplay? I still have a picture of me somewhere with an SLR in my mouth whilst on guard duty. Although difficult it would not have been impossible to shoot myself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 1 November , 2003 Share Posted 1 November , 2003 Alan - Be careful!!! You have just laid yourself open to a joke with the punchline - it missed your brain by 2 ft!!! Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Lines Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Ian it was a long time ago and I am more mature these days! Although according to the wife that's not true and seeing as I'm sitting here nursing a cracked rib sustained in the mosh pit at a Bowling For Soup concert on Friday night I suppose I have to agree with her!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 2 November , 2003 Share Posted 2 November , 2003 Alan - Get well soon mate!! Broken ribs are no laughing matter - literally!!!!!!!!! Sneezing - oh boy!! The only medicine is some of Ireland's finest, but I am sure JB will not agree with that!! Cheers - Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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