isanders Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 I'm aware that the initial dvisions of the BEF were called the Old Contemptibles , but can anyone tell me how many troops were classified as such and how many survived the war? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 The origins of the nickname "Old Contemptibles" have been discussed previously in the forum, but the men to whom the name was usually given were members of the original B.E.F. who qualified for the 1914 Star, particularly those who wore the addition qualification bar for service "within the range of German mobile artillery" between 5th August and 22nd November 1914. Another term that was often used was that a soldier had been "out since Mons", although this is misleading as several formations of the B.E.F., such as 4th, 6th, 7th and 3rd Cavalry Divisions, did not arrive in France until after the battle. As for the 2nd Battalion, The Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry, or the "52nd" as they always insisted on calling themselves, out of the members of the battalion who landed at Boulogne on 14th August 1914, only 32 other ranks were still serving with it on 11th November 1918. I seem to recall that the 1914 Star medal roll for the battalion contained approximately 1200 names of officers and other ranks, and out of that total around 25% died during the war. I have a copy of the 1914 and 1914/15 Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Chronicle at home, as well as Lieutent-Colonel Crosse's "The 52nd Light Infantry in 1914" which mentions the exact number of casualties sustained by the battalion during 1914. I will have a look and post the exact numbers on the forum when I have had a chance to look. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 A good but crude statistic that fits all sorts of scales of units and times is that combat caused about one death in five men, two were wounded, and two unscathed. This fits my data base fairly well: 921 dead out of 4143 men of RWF of 1,2 and 4 bns on the 1914 star medal roll. 1RWF were exeptionally heavily engaged, and 2RWF only slightly less so. To make a decent estimate all you need [!] is total number awarded 1914 star. Simple. I bet one of us knows that. Sorry it is not me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanders Posted 4 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 November , 2003 378,000 1914 Stars were issued according to First World War.combut not sure whether that includes posthumously, also would include rear units too. I'm more interested in those with the "service under fire" bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Many of those entitled to the clasp did not claim it [issue was only 'with the rations' if still serving after war]. Relatives of the 20% or so dead in the interim often did not claim. No claim, no clasp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewThornton Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Hi Isanders I have had a look at the 1914 Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Chronicle and your grandfather is on a group photo of the 2nd Battalion signallers taken in July 1914. I can copy it for you if you don't have it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 4 November , 2003 Share Posted 4 November , 2003 Many of those entitled to the clasp did not claim it [issue was only 'with the rations' if still serving after war]. Relatives of the 20% or so dead in the interim often did not claim. No claim, no clasp. I thought no 'claim' was necessary for Other Ranks? The MICs and Medal Rolls do not hint at any need to claim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Can Relatives still make claims for the Clasp and if so to whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 AO 361 of 16 Oct 1919 authorised the clasp, and sub para 8. ............individuals not now serving should apply on special forms ....... from Post Office. As for relatives claiming, not any more I think, although claims were admitted astonishingly late, I seem to recall the 1980's in some cases. There is plenty of evidence from the medal rolls that very many clasps were never claimed, my 2RWF roll has whole pages with no clasp issue recorded, and they were almost all under fire throughout the relevant period. Not sure about MiCs, I don't use them a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Thank you lb, I have an Uncle's "Star" which was postumously issued in 1920(Ihave the original envelope and covering letter). Logic to me said that the clasp would have been issued at the same time and has been subsequently been mislaid. From your reply this possibly was not the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 November , 2003 Share Posted 5 November , 2003 Logic to me said that the clasp would have been issued at the same time and has been subsequently been mislaid. From your reply this possibly was not the case. The Medal Roll for everyone is at Kew, and will most definitely indicate if the clasp was issued or not. If you put your relative's details up, I am sure a Pal will add it to his hit list. My next visit not until Spring, but someone will oblige: we always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dycer Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 lb et al, If this is the wrong place to post the reply sorry. Relative and namesake No 20 C/PL G.S. Souness 8th Btn Royal Scots. As a matter of interest l.b. Did your RWF and my RS serve together in the 7th Division in 1914? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 6 November , 2003 Share Posted 6 November , 2003 As a matter of interest l.b. Did your RWF and my RS serve together in the 7th Division in 1914? No. 2RWF were in the following formations: Lines of Comm 11 to 22 Aug 1914 19 Bde [independent] 22 Aug to 12 Oct 1914 19 Bde 6 Div to 31 May 1915 19 Bde 27 Div to 19 Aug 1915 19 Bde 2 Div to 25 Nov 1915 19 Bde 33 Div to 6 Feb 1918 115 Bde 38 Div to 11 Nov 1918 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
isanders Posted 10 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Hi Isanders I have had a look at the 1914 Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry Chronicle and your grandfather is on a group photo of the 2nd Battalion signallers taken in July 1914. I can copy it for you if you don't have it already. Andrew, can't seem to get a message to you via the email service. I'd love a scanned copy from the 1914 chronicle of the 2nd Batt signallers. Many thanks Ian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Andrew Thornton refers to "the additional qualification bar for service "within the range of German Mobile Artillery" between 5th August and 22nd November 1914". The experienced amongst us may well regard this as a daft question, but, as I have very little experience of Medal Index Cards, could I please check that a soldier awarded this additional bar would have that fact recorded upon his Medal Index Card? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 Simon The MIC does not have that information recorded upon it. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olosangus Posted 13 November , 2003 Share Posted 13 November , 2003 re the clasp to the 14 star : The issue of the clasp would be recorded on the Medal index card, normally it would show, somewhere on the body of the card " clasp & roses" followed by a series of numbers, sometimes it just says " C & R " followed by the numbers. The "roses" refers to a small rose shaped emblem which was worn on the medal ribbon bar to differentiate someone who had been awarded the clasp. If you want a clasp for display purposes they are available from dealers etc. You will occaisionally see original one's ( and more often copies ) for sale on www.speedbid.com. Expect to pay about 20-30 pounds for an original and about 4pounds for a copy. I agree with other comments the award of the clasp does not appear to have been universal to all of those entitled. Hope this helps. Simon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Hone Posted 14 November , 2003 Share Posted 14 November , 2003 On an anecdotal note my great-uncle 721 Private John Hone, 1st Royal Warwicks, a reservist called up on the outbreak of war, lasted from the Battle of Le Cateau to the Warwicks' last action of the war on 24th October 1918 where he was killed, probably by a Royal Artillery 'short'. Presumably there were many cases of 'Old Contemptibles' who 'didn't quite make it'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 22 November , 2003 Share Posted 22 November , 2003 Gents As a straw poll, I had 3 great-uncles entitled to the "Mons Star". Two of the 3's MICs refer to Clasp or Clasp & roses. The 3rd chap has no mention of the clasp but was 1st Bn Grenadier Guards (but transferred to RE in Aug 1916) - does this make a difference? The chap with the clasp was KIA Oct 14 so would not have had a chance to claim his. The last one with "clasp & roses" survived until 1963. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Simon Bull Posted 25 November , 2003 Share Posted 25 November , 2003 In an earlier post I asked if "the additional qualification bar for service "within the range of German Mobile Artillery" between 5th August and 22nd November 1914" appeared on the MIC. Terry was kind enough to tell me it does not. How, then, does one know if a particular individual had earned this honour? I ask because I am researching some men who may well have been awarded it and I would like to be able to check. Simon Bull Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 I would be interested in the answer to this one as well. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 26 November , 2003 Share Posted 26 November , 2003 The latter question is also of interest to me, I have with me the medals od Pte. Joseph Smith, 2nd Sherwood Foresters KIA 24 Sept 1914 at the Batlleof the Aisne. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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