Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 I have searched the Web for the answer to this question and wondered if any of the Pals know the answer. Of all the schools who provided staff and pupils to serve in the War, which school's members won the most Gallantry awards? I believe I read somewhere that Bromsgrove school won more VC's than any other school during WW1, but I'm not sure if this was true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 There were five Old Bromsgrovians who won the VC, but not all in WW1, I believe. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Tom, I thought that I had read it somewhere! My own old school (All Saints, Bloxham) won 12 DSO's, 26 MC's, 4 MM's and it's men were MID'd no less than 183 times. I have been very keen to research the role of school OTC's during the war, and was interested to find out about other schools. Thanks for your help Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Stonyhurst College had 7 VC winners, don't know how many were from WW1 though. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue Light Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Haileybury old boys have won a total of 17 VCs in all conflicts - they have an excellent roll of honour on-line at: Haileybury Roll of Honour Sue Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Sue, What a great site! I have been to Hailerbury many times when younger, and never once managed to beat them at rugby, in 6 years of trying! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulianB Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 There has been a correspondence in The Times over the last few months on which school has the record for the most VCs. I can't remember the final statistics but I think Eton won. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.r.f Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 PALS I think that today of all days this is a blind alley.One of the things that transpired from ww1 is that the class system begane to break down.In my opinion virtually all the old boys,and girls ,were brave and ,in a sense,all should have been given the V.C..I feel to start a my school is better than yours is all wrong. I am so sorry but I do feel very strongly about this. If I have got the wrong end of the stick then please forgive me. CHEERS. JOHN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 John, The last thing I ever intended was to start a class driven "my school was better than your school" debate, and I am sorry if you feel that way. I have been trying to research the men from my old school for the last three years. The only reason I started this project was because I was surfing the Net one day and came across a site about Bromsgrove school. This site mentionned the number of VC winners they had had, and it made me start wondering about my old school. My question was posted out of a genuine interest in the subject, not to try and offend people morals. I posted a topic not long ago about a gardener who was not posted on a school memorial, because he "was only a gardener"....I posted this because I was outraged that a person who gave his life, should be treated differently. I only mentionned the awards won by men from my school as a point of interest and out of a sense of pride I have for them. If it has offended you, or made you feel that there was some ulterior motive, or made you feel I was trying to provoke a "mine's better than your's" debate, then I am sorry. The date of the posting was only because I thought of the subject today, once again, not to try and be insensitive. Having lost family members in the Great War (all of whom were coal miners from a tiny village in South Wales), I do understand that no matter what a persons social standing, they should all still be seen as hero's. Class is not relevant in my book, it is actions that count. If you are not happy with anything I have said, then please feel free to chat with me by email. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.r.f Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Mat and other pals.Please I am sorry.At least part of me was a bit jelous .I am researching the school where I was formerly a teacher.There were two other that were combined with it back in the fifties or sixties.I have,at this stage looked at two of the three schools.There may be one M.M.and posiblt one D.C.M..Most of the rest just got killed.Sorry again next time I will sit on my hands and think before making a fool of myself and upsetting others. SORRY. JOHN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 John, Couple of things: 1) You certainly have not made a fool of yourself. I can understand your sentiments totally, and I respect your opinion. I only posted the response, as I felt sorry that something I had posted on here stirred up your feelings. 2) You have absolutely no need to apologise, I assure you 100% that you have neither offended nor upset me by posting what you did! One of the great things about this forum is that like any group of people, we are bound to disagree on some things, fall out over some things, and agree to differ over some things....that in my opinion is what makes this such a great site. You must never feel that you cannot make a response for fear that the original postee will be offended. This is a forum for debate and discussion and all views are important, and I believe that people should not make posts unless they are prepared to listen to what people think and then discuss the comments made. Your project sounds very interesting and it would be great to find out more about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Well said both. Nevertheless, isn’t it true that a schools league table of gallantry awards will as much as anything be a reflection of social status at the time, and not of much value in any other way? Other than as an individual school record of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Clive, You are of course right, and to publish it in that form would be demeaning and disrespectful to all of those who served and fell. As I said it is not what you awarded that is important, it is the fact that you went and did it in the first place that is the honourable thing. I must reiterate that the only reason I asked was out of curiousity, not to stir up a controversy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Well said both. Nevertheless, isn’t it true that a schools league table of gallantry awards will as much as anything be a reflection of social status at the time, and not of much value in any other way? Other than as an individual school record of course. An interesting line of thought. If: awards like the VC are unevenly distributed by social class in favour of public schools and the officers they automatically produced; and if execution by firing squad for desertion is also unevenly distributed by social class against what Charles Carrington once memorably described as the 'refuse of the industrial system' then it follows that both cowardice and courage are determined by social class. And since courage and cowardice are the reverse sides of the same coin, then that would make sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt Dixon Posted 9 November , 2003 Author Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Hedley, What an interesting idea. I must confess I had never thought of it in those terms. I think one could write a thesis on that! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 9 November , 2003 Share Posted 9 November , 2003 Hear hear Hedley John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Maier Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 ... then it follows that both cowardice and courage are determined by social class. ... Hedley, Cowardice and courage are attributed to social class, not determined by social class. I believe this is your view too. Even today, health for example, is closely linked to class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Words and conotations Clive... and in danger of opening a can of worms ... Schools were and still are justly proud of their students and their achievements, regardless of where they came from and wehre they went to after finishing school, and this extends to the battlefield. What you highlight Clive is the inequality of the system, is that a fact of lif regardless of the era in which you live? John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
j.r.f Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Pals I am sorry I have stirred up a potential hornets nest.This sounds silly,but after a fairly sleepless night,i have come up with these thoughts.It is of course inevitable that the public schools,theres an anacronism for a start,would have more decorations than the municipal schools,at the time of ww1.Why?Because they represented the power base of the country at that time.It would also seem fairly lojical that an order of merit might show which was the top school.So I would expect that Eaton would be more or less at the top. There is some room for study here .My school,That is the one in which I taught,was one of the first Higher Grade Municipal Schools in the country.I cant remember the exact date,but it was previous to ww1.It later became St George Grammar schoolAnd later still became a comprehensive,at this point it was merged with one commercial school and two secondary.The area which the school serves was and is a mixture of solid working class and rising middle class. It is of interest to note that there is a diference between the memorials of the higher grade school and the others,ie most of the officers and medals come from the higher grade school.Even so the number of commisions and medals are very small. Yes you are correct this is becominmg a thesis.It is now obvious to me that I need to analize my findings and to learn more. Finally,for now,I am so sorry for my outburst yesterday.Please please please donot let this dampen your studies and research.Maybe there is,when more data has been collected,merit in doing a comparison between these different types of schools in order to see what therte is to be learned. I think this will do for now.This is the longest message I have ever written on-line. CHEERS. JOHN. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedley Malloch Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Cowardice and courage are attributed to social class, not determined by social class. I believe this is your view too. Even today, health for example, is closely linked to class. Yes, absolutely agree, Clive. J.r.f. Scratch at any social phenenon (courage, cowardice, health, educational attainment) and you'll come to questions of class sooner or later. That's because we live in a class based society. Don't apologise: we should not be embarrased to recognise and discuss it. Let's come at the question from another angle. Nearly 100% of the death sentences went to ORs. What % of VCs in WW1 went to officers and what % to ORs? I have been unable to access the Victoria Cross site to check this out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Hussar Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 By my calculations it's fairly even, overall there have been 713 awarded to O/R's and 632 awarded to Officers(although 16 of these were to Temporary 2nd lieutenants, so they could be classed as O/R's?). In the largest awarded rank categories 250 have been awarded to Privates, 127 to Sergeants. 207 to Lieutenants, 108 to Captains Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Morgan Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 By my calculations it's fairly even, overall there have been 713 awarded to O/R's and 632 awarded to Officers(although 16 of these were to Temporary 2nd lieutenants, so they could be classed as O/R's?). In the largest awarded rank categories 250 have been awarded to Privates, 127 to Sergeants. 207 to Lieutenants, 108 to Captains Interesting figures. Considering that the average battalion at full strength consisted of about 1000 men and 33 officers, it does indeed look as if a much higher percentage of officers received awards. Tom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Floyd Posted 10 November , 2003 Share Posted 10 November , 2003 Based on lots of years of observation, and not having precise statistics to back this up for WWI awards, I think you'll find that the break-out of awards by rank correlates more to proximity to the action than any other factor. A higher percentage of privates were at the point of action than were generals. Lieutenants bore the brunt of small actions (raiding parties, bombing parties, etc) and so were far more likely to be decorated for combat gallantry. Although it somewhat compares apples to oranges, figures for Medal of Honor awards for World War II to the US Army shows the following breakout: General - 6 Colonel - 5 Lt Col - 5 Major - 11 Captain - 8 1 Lieutenant - 32 2 Lieutenant - 26 Master Sgt - 2 Tech Sgt - 20 Staff Sgt - 36 Sgt - 29 Corporal - 17 Pvt 1cl - 63 Pvt - 28 The lieutenants and privates were closest to the action and had greater opportunity to receive the Medal of Honor. I suspect that VC awards would follow a similar pattern. You get into all sorts of other factors if you look at other awards and other services. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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