The Flowers of the Forest

[George Armstrong Custer]

The Flowers of the Forest: Scotland and the First World War, by Trevor Royle, published 2006 by Birlinn [iSBN: 1 84341 030 3], £25.

Just picked up a copy of this. The title comes from the poignant pipe melody The Flowers of the Forest, written as a lament to commemorate the great loss of Scots life, including King James IV and the flower of the Scottish nobility, at the battle of Flodden in 1513. The lament was played many times between 1914-18, and was also played twice as Haig's coffin was borne through Edinburgh in January 1928 to lie in state in St Giles' cathedral, where 70,000 of his fellow countrymen and women filed past to pay their final respects. The author sets out his stall in the Preface:

'First things first: this is not a history of the First World War as seen through Scottish eyes or an attempt to wrap the home front and the main battle-fronts in a kilt. Rather, it is the story of the role played by Scotland and Scots in influencing the British management of the war and of how the country was changed irrevokably as a result of the experience of over four years of warfare. Within the United Kingdom Scotland supplied a greater proportion per head of the population of the assault troops that engaged in the great battles of attrition in 1915 and 1916; half of Scotland's male population aged between eighteen and forty-five was in uniform. Casualties were correspondingly high and consequently disproportionate. Industry too suffered. From being the workshop of the British war effort Scotland's heavy industries went into decline and while there were innovations in the workplace, such as the rise of trade union influence and the employment of women, these turned out not to be the breakthrough hoped for by many idealists and dreamers. Home rule was also a casualty: it was almost on the statute books in August 1914 but disappeared as a result of the collapse of its sponsors, the Liberals, and the failure of Labour to offer it any realistic support.'

This looks an interesting read, which I'll report on more fully - though heaven knows when that will be, as this title duly takes its place on my 'to read' stacks! Illustrations are good, with a cracking jacket picture of kilted and helmeted men of the 26th Brigade being led through the mud by a piper of the 7th Seaforth Highlanders after the attack on Longueval, 14 July 1916. Curiously, like the new Haig biography released by the same publishing house, this book is jacket-priced at £25, but comes up on the tills at Waterstone's at £20, with no indication that it's been officially discounted........

Ciao,

GAC

[DMcNay]

Finances as they are the moment unfortunately dictate that I'll need to wait for the paperback edition....

[Malcolm]

I'm going to his book signing on the 8th November and they'll be £20 each there.

Aye

Malcolm

[djcrtoye]

Waiting to get it from library will read it, if liked I will buy my own copy.

[djcrtoye]

Have just finished it. Great read tells you everything from first days of the war to the last. The great sacrifice of Scottish soldiers and other men fron different parts of the UK and at the time the Empire is awe inspiring. It is also good to read a book which has a Scottish perspective on the war, because we all heard of the English war poets, but it introduces you to Scottish war poets which I didn't know about and hope fully I can find some of their works. Also introduces you to Dr. Elsie Maud Inglis who offered to create a hospital for the Army but was turned down, but she created the hospitals for France and Serbia she was taken prisoner of war twice but was exchanged. When she died in 1917 she was given a full military funeral with senior officers of Scotland and Serbia there. It saddens you also to know the percentage of dead soldiers was the third highest among the nations in the conflict. It makes wonder why peolpe like Dr. Elsie Inglis are not remembered and not taught in our schools, is it the reason schools are told to teach the facts eg the somme etc and haven't got time to teach the important contribution this small country made to the first war the people who fought it. The book also shows some of Scottish wit that the common soldier had to use to get over the carnage that was going on around him at the time.

All in all a brilliant book if you want to see Scotland's contribution to the war effort. I certainly will want to but a copy.

[truthergw]

................................

It makes wonder why peolpe like Dr. Elsie Inglis are not remembered and not taught in our schools, is it the reason schools are told to teach the facts eg the somme etc and haven't got time to teach the important contribution this small country made to the first war the people who fought it.

.................................

All in all a brilliant book if you want to see Scotland's contribution to the war effort. I certainly will want to but a copy.

Pupils are taught what their teachers know. i.e. what their teachers were taught, in conjunction with the text book in use. In a subject like history, interpretation is as important as facts. If Scottish pupils are to make their way in the modern world, they need to view history on a wider basis than the Scots contribution to a war of nearly a century ago. Our interest in WW1 is intense and we are ' nane the waur o' that' but we should not force it on others who may have different aims and passions.

[George Armstrong Custer]

If Scottish pupils are to make their way in the modern world, they need to view history on a wider basis than the Scots contribution to a war of nearly a century ago. Our interest in WW1 is intense and we are ' nane the waur o' that' but we should not force it on others who may have different aims and passions.

Quite so. And if one of the aims of learning history is to help the pupil 'make their way in the modern world', then it would seem pertinant that British schoolchildren across the UK are taught about their nation's involvement in the Great War.

After all, we are living today with many of the consequences of that war - we created that state of Iraq at the end of that war, for goodness sake! Then there's the ongoing situation of Palestine, of course - again directly traceable to British and French decisions during and after the Great War. The Second World War was a consequence of decisions made during and immediately after the Great War - and we are likewise still dealing with the fallout (literally in some senses) of that conflict.

Over and above these global consequences (which the Royle book presents Scotland's role in the context of) is the impact of the Great War on Scottish society, which is something this book explores to great effect - in other words, what role did the experience of the Great War play in creating the society we are today?

So understanding the Great War is hugely important in beginning to understand how we got to the world we live in today. A book which educates on Scotland's involvement in that story ought, in my view, to be recommended to the Scottish school history curriculum. It is by no means parochial for Scots schoolchildren to be taught to take an interest in Scotland's involvement in the Great War - after all, it was part of the making of modern Scotland as well as the wider world.

Ciao,

GAC

[djcrtoye]

My daughter has just finished the term that dealt with ww1 sure they were told the facts, but that was all no room for what contrbution the Home nations made to the over all war effort. Especially the sacrifice that Scotland made in it. The book also deals with the many strikes that took place during the war which the course doesn't deal with it seems that they were concentrating on the fighting and there was a passing reference to the home front. Which to my view of the war was equally as important because there would have been no ammunition for them to fight with. I agree with your post GAC.

[truthergw]

Quite so. And if one of the aims of learning history is to help the pupil 'make their way in the modern world', then it would seem pertinant that British schoolchildren across the UK are taught about their nation's involvement in the Great War.

After all, we are living today with many of the consequences of that war - we created that state of Iraq at the end of that war, for goodness sake! Then there's the ongoing situation of Palestine, of course - again directly traceable to British and French decisions during and after the Great War. The Second World War was a consequence of decisions made during and immediately after the Great War - and we are likewise still dealing with the fallout (literally in some senses) of that conflict.

Over and above these global consequences is the impact of the Great War on Scottish society, which is something this book explores to great effect - in other words, what role did the experience of the Great War play in creating the society we are today?

So understanding the Great War is hugely important in beginning to understand how we got to the world we live in today. A book which educates on Scotland's involvement in that story ought, in my view, to be recommended to the Scottish school history curriculum. It is by no means parochial for Scots schoolchildren to be taught to take an interest in the Great War - after all, it was part of the making of modern Scotland.

Ciao,

GAC

I am largely in agreement with you. What I am trying to say is that we need to see the big picture and not get trapped into a parochial description of the war. Perhaps an example will show what I mean.

The Battle of Loos was a very bad one for Scotland with two New Army Scottish divisions heavily involved and suffering terrible casualties. It was particularly bad for my home town of Dundee with the local regiment Black Watch fielding nearly every battalion. Hardly a street was unaffected. It foreshadowed the Pals at the Somme. I wished to research the battle and discovered that It was mentioned by the French as a supporting action to the main battles in Artois and the Germans do not see it as a separate battle at all. It is part of an overall battle in Artois. Although painful, I lost my grandfather there, it did put the battle into proper perspective. The French had already lost vast numbers of men and continued to do so throughout that year in Champagne and Artois with Verdun still to come.

[AthollHighlander]

I've been persuaded by this thread to purchase a copy having already shortlisted. I have book vouchers coming my way next week and had "searched" for Trevor Royle with regard to The Gordon Highlanders - A Concise History which I also have my eye on.. I'd be very grateful if anyone on forum who has read the book or with extensive knowledge of the Gordons could express an opinion on it. If there is already a thread.. I'll no doubt track it down.

Many thanks

[George Armstrong Custer]

I see The Flowers of the Forest is now out in paperback - £9.99 or currently £6.99 on Amazon. This is a thoughtful book, which tackes themes from a wider social spectrum on the impact which the Great War on Scotland than just the frontline experience of Scotish soldiers.

ciao,

GAC

[Roxy]

The Hardback edition is available in TESCO for £7! (at least it is in Elgin!)

Half way through my copy - a good read so far.

Roxy

[George Armstrong Custer]

Wow - that's excellent value! For anyone interested in Scotland and the Great War I'd recommend grabbing a hardback copy at that price, as it's a source you'll return to on many occasions after reading it from cover to cover for the first time.

ciao,

GAC

[Steven Broomfield]

Bloody long way to go to Elgin the get it

[truthergw]

Be fair Steve, He left his marbles in London.

[George Armstrong Custer]

Bloody long way to go to Elgin the get it

Steve -

Anyone happen to know if it's a Scotland-only Tesco promotion?

[Roxy]

If it is:

a. unlucky!

b. I'll post onwards.

Roxy

PS It might be. It is £17.50 on their web site!

[Guest]

i was given this book by my father on my 24th brithday,quite an impressive book i recommend every scots should read at least once!,

regards

william

[Derek Robertson]

What I am trying to say is that we need to see the big picture and not get trapped into a parochial description of the war.

The Battle of Loos was a very bad one for Scotland with two New Army Scottish divisions heavily involved and suffering terrible casualties. It was particularly bad for my home town of Dundee with the local regiment Black Watch fielding nearly every battalion.

Although painful, I lost my grandfather there, it did put the battle into proper perspective.

What or whose perspective exactly?

If you can't see the battle from the perspective of your Grandfather's home then whose are you seeing it from?

Sincere apologies to your Granny but I can't see her giving a damn for the French or the Kaiser.

Parochial, hell yes. For what good is a greater europe beyond what you can see over the fireplace at night?

Good book though, I did enjoy it.

[truthergw]

From the perspective of a dispassionate observer who might well consider that the main brunt of the war was being borne by the French, who had suffered much greater losses up to this stage in the war and who were fielding forces many times greater, in 2 great battles, each of which dwarfed the Battle of Loos in every way one would care to measure a battle. It may strike you as heretical but I try hard to view history from as unbiased a viewpoint as I can. I do not feel the need to wrap myself in the Lion Rampant when I try to understand what happened and why.

[59165]

If you can't see the battle from the perspective of your Grandfather's home then whose are you seeing it from?

Sincere apologies to your Granny but I can't see her giving a damn for the French or the Kaiser.

Isn't it always better to look at the bigger picture when talking about a history that's close to the heart?I know that me & Tom both have looked at the battlefield from eye level,down in the mud at an old trench line at times so I think I can safely say that he has a good perspective of it & also the outcome.

As to Tom's Granny,how would you know?Heat of the moment,2 minutes after reading the telegram,of course,yes but....you have to look at the bigger picture.

Given Scotlands history with the French,maybe she did 'give a damn'.

Who will ever know?

[George Armstrong Custer]

Royle's book certainly places Scotland's role and the impact of the war upon the nation within the context of the bigger picture - as his Preface made clear: ''First things first: this is not a history of the First World War as seen through Scottish eyes or an attempt to wrap the home front and the main battle-fronts in a kilt. Rather, it is the story of the role played by Scotland and Scots in influencing the British management of the war and of how the country was changed irrevokably as a result of the experience of over four years of warfare.'

ciao,

GAC

[4thGordons]

I've been persuaded by this thread to purchase a copy having already shortlisted. I have book vouchers coming my way next week and had "searched" for Trevor Royle with regard to The Gordon Highlanders - A Concise History which I also have my eye on.. I'd be very grateful if anyone on forum who has read the book or with extensive knowledge of the Gordons could express an opinion on it. If there is already a thread.. I'll no doubt track it down.

Many thanks

just found this .....

I enjoyed Flowers of the Forest - broader in scope than some. Echo many of the above comments. I found a few of his social and political observations a little generic but on the whole a book I would recommend.

I cannot I fear say the same about the Gordons Book. (Which I got a couple of weeks ago) I am not sure I qualify as having an extensive knowledge of the Gordons but I have read extensively and in a very directed manner on the regiment.

I am assuming your interest is primarily in the WWI section (the book covers the whole history) if so - I found nothing new in the book and several (albeit minor) things I would take issue with. It quotes extensively from Falls (if you want to know about the Gordons in WWI get this - Cyril Falls - Life of a Regiment Vol IV 1914-19) and a couple of other places (McConachie on the 1/4th Bn) - overall I was not impressed. If you want a short account of the Gordons in WWI I would suggest Thomson (Rev.) published in several editions from 1916 on as a very nice account.

Overall Flowers of the Forest gets a thumbs up, The concise history of the Gordons (for WWI interest) is far less impressive and I would suggest several others (it is however concise and cheap so if you want just an overview it might be fine...) for me it was redundant and added nothing.

Chris

[George Armstrong Custer]

just found this .....

I enjoyed Flowers of the Forest - broader in scope than some. Echo many of the above comments. I found a few of his social and political observations a little generic but on the whole a book I would recommend.

I cannot I fear say the same about the Gordons Book. (Which I got a couple of weeks ago) I am not sure I qualify as having an extensive knowledge of the Gordons but I have read extensively and in a very directed manner on the regiment.

I agree with you on this, Chris - the contrast between Royle's best work and much of the rest is clear. He's one of those authors with a prolific output, and it seems that this is achieved by only producing major, well-researched and thoughtful works intermittently, with the rest being pot-boiler money-spinning fillers. As noted earlier, he certainly found a subject he could do justice to with The Flowers of the Forest, and some years earlier I also enjoyed his thoughtful biography of K-of-K, 'The Kitchener Enigma'. However a couple of years ago he produced a history of the English Civil War which was roundly slated by critics as revealing the author to be out of his depth and making consequent crass errors in his facts and the conclusions he drew from them. I don't know the Gordon book, but I believe it is part of a whole series of mini-regimental histories of the Scottish regiments which Royle produced. Having looked through a couple of these in Waterstone's, they seem - as you note - to be largely distillations of the works of others put into compact form for the casually interested reader. As such they add little or nothing to the already published historiographies of these regiments.

I do re-emphasise, however, that 'Flowers of the Forest' is of a different order altogether, and may well prove to be Royle's masterpiece and most enduring and original work.

ciao,

GAC