Jonathan Saunders Posted 26 November , 2006 Share Posted 26 November , 2006 This is just to flag up that this book has just been published. A few of us have heard Nick lecture on Loos and have been waiting for his book to come out. If anyone has read it, or started it, would be interesting to hear your views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 26 November , 2006 Share Posted 26 November , 2006 held it the other day, though only briefly before the owner grabbed it back. Not seen it in the shops yet, though it is on Amazon. Took the liberty of asking the library to get, but as yet not heard anything. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 26 November , 2006 Share Posted 26 November , 2006 Saw it in a shop a couple of weeks back - but didn't take the plunge then - though was impressed enough to note that it was worth a gander. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 5 February , 2007 Share Posted 5 February , 2007 Hello, Thought I would flag this thread up again to see if anyone has now read Nick Lloyd's book on Loos. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 5 February , 2007 Share Posted 5 February , 2007 David, I have not read it yet (library copy)but I have skimm read it for the bits on 21st div and was impressed by the knowledge of some of it. He had managed to find some info on Forestier-Walker that I had found,(not trying to say I am good, just hard to find) almost felt like he had looked over my shoulder at some point. But as a gage, if he found that then he has done his homework. Will be buying it in the future when funds allow. On this basis alone I would say it has merit, but also from the skimming I have done, its not a pro Haig book, no white wash. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Tucker Posted 5 February , 2007 Share Posted 5 February , 2007 Read it before Christmas - will become the authoritive account of the battle. Debunks the idea that failure was down to French's handling of the reserves. Well researched and well written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 5 February , 2007 Share Posted 5 February , 2007 Just bought a copy and about to venture into its pages - one that has been put to the top of the pile and looking very promising. Look forward to contributing my views and seeking those of others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 I have read it and was uneasy about it when I finished. I was disappointed and I don't know why. I will give it about a month then reread it to see why it is unsettling me. I read it at the same time as " The Death of Glory" by Robin Neillands. Perhaps it was that, an overdose of 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 Thanks, Ordered it from Amazon. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David_Blanchard Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 My first impressions on the first few chapters. Looks at the battle from the point of view of the 'Learning Curve' School ( Does this exist?). Haig does not come out of this very well, especially with regard to the use of gas. Makes good use of the archive material available, excellent footnotes. However, I do have one quibble: seems to rely heavily on Prior and Wilson when in pursuit of operational analysis. Nevertheless, makes good use of statistical information; points out that officer, both senior/junior, casualties were as high as the 1st July 1916, for the 25th September 1915. Have yet to read the more controversial aspects of the battle, namely the use of follow up troops on the days after the initial attack. David Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 I have noticed Nick Lloyd does have a tendency to rely and quote Prior and Wilson and Travers alot, not a bad thing if he then uses and refuts their conclusions. It does atleast show he is using all sources. I must get started on this book. Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 10 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2007 not a bad thing if he then uses and refuts their conclusions. Why? I havent read the book yet but why cant he use Prior & Wilson and Travers to substantiate his findings, if that is what he finds to be the case. We have already determined he is making full use of original sources. Regards, Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Sorry my bad grammar! What I meant was if he uses them to say yes they are right and then no they are wrong, shows he reads and gains his own opinions rather than taking others all from one side of the argument. not sure thats any clearer. Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 10 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2007 No thats perfectly clear. Many thanks. Jon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 10 February , 2007 Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Sorry my bad grammar! What I meant was if he uses them to say yes they are right and then no they are wrong, shows he reads and gains his own opinions rather than taking others all from one side of the argument. not sure thats any clearer. Arm I posted earlier, that the book had me uneasy. I skimmed it last night to see if I could pinpoint the source or sources of this uneasiness. One of them anyway is that I felt he tried so hard to be evenhanded that he ended up on both sides of the wall at once. It is of course, A GOOD THING to look at all sides of a discussion but I felt that his conclusions were not sustained by his arguments. Another book where I felt the same, was " The Great War Generals of the Western Front", Robin Neillands. Both this book and Nick Lloyd's are books which certainly ought to be read but I felt faintly disappointed after doing so. Almost certainly, this is a purely personal reaction and can be disregarded. Buy the book, it ought to be read by anyone who is interested in Loos, Haig or French. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 10 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 10 February , 2007 Agree on Niellands. I was very disappointed. I really need to read this Nick Lloyd book - what I would say is that I have heard him talk on Loos twice, maybe three times, and his verbal argument is very good and accepted by the academics (ie mostly in the pro-Haig camp although his conclusions are unfavourable to Haig). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 15 February , 2007 Share Posted 15 February , 2007 just starting the book, I know bit slow but.... Notice the introduction I have heard Nick talk about at Birmingham Uni when he rad a paer on the war in 1915. Some good info in the short chapter to set the back ground. will post more as I get through it. Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
n cherry Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 At the risk of sticking my head over the parapet and getting it shot off can I add a few comments as I've now ploughed my way through the Lloyd book twice.... Being a simple man I get concerned when I read in the notes of a book that it's the results of someone's PhD thesis. Two previous books stick in my mind, one on Gallipoli by a woman and one by W Buckingham on the airborne forces 1940 to 1942 (also published by Tempus). Both of these were extremely hard going and seemed to be aimed at an 'intelligent' audience. I cannot fault the amount of research that has gone into the book but at times in the space of a few pages I felt both educated and frustrated. As one other Pal said Lloyd certainly took note a lot of note of Pryor and Wilson. To me it seemed more of a staff officers book than a book on the actual fighting. Whilst I accept that the planning etc is a vital component of any battle I felt what happened in the front line was under covered. I think it's fair to say good on the high command but loses points for ignoring the PBI. As a final comment before I get ripped to shreds as a comparison on the dreaded Amazon web site Corrigan rrp £18.99 Amazon £12.53 Lloyd rrp £25.00 Amazon £16.50 Most Unfavourable Ground rrp £25.00 Amazon £30.53 Is there anyone with any inside knowledge on how Amazon decide their pricing policy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 They price confusingly, I recently pointed out to them that wh smith had a book at a much lower price, sorry say they no can do. Hopwever a week later price drops to said one I had told them! I suggest you point out to them this 'error' Or perhaps they price by quality I would concur with you on the higher command aspect of the book I am half way through and I am enjoying the book, it does rely on P and W alot however I think he is making a good case. I have long believed that Haig has got off with his faults in this battle and that French has taken the can. Certainly 1st Army staff work was poor in the rear areas, I assume from wjhat I read this will be highlighted when I get to the appropriate page. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roxy Posted 24 February , 2007 Share Posted 24 February , 2007 I enjoyed it, although I do agree that Pryor and Wilson seemed to get more than their fair share of recognition. And why would anyone want to buy MUG from Amazon when you could get a signed one from the man himself Thanks again Niall! Roxy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 27 February , 2007 Share Posted 27 February , 2007 Just started this book. Impressed so far and I find it a very informative read. Nial's book of course is superb and I will re read it before going to Loos again later this year.Neuves Chapelle, Aubers Ridge and Festubert I hope to get to see and explore as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 27 February , 2007 Share Posted 27 February , 2007 Just finished the book. I did enjoy the book, but would say it is very much command and control orientated, rather than grass routes battle coverage. Not that its a problem to me, you can read this and Nial's book in conjunction to get a good rounded view. I would recommend this read for anyone who wants to see an overview of the war, that has been well researched and set out nicely. However I did get a little tired of the often quoted 'according to prior and Wilson', though not because I necesserily disagreed with them. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 8 March , 2007 Share Posted 8 March , 2007 Finished the book and enjoyed the read although there was not that much "new" that I found in it and none of my apparent misunderstandings or myths were shattered IMHO. Good descriptions of the organisation and staff side of things, well researched and lots of references but found that it tended to rightly detail what went wrong, but not so much about what went right when it was mentioned. For example, it mentions that training for the battle and staff work in 47th Division was the exception, it being good, but does not, even briefly, say in detail why or who was responsible although the Divisional Commander is mentioned a couple of times. Worth the read though if you want to find out a bit more about the background and the battle of Loos. edited Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick D Posted 26 July , 2007 Share Posted 26 July , 2007 Anybody know where I can get a copy of this ? And why is it so hard to find ? Amazon & Abe list it but don't stock it, Waterstones can't get it, it was only published last year wasn't it ? Mick D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thGordons Posted 26 July , 2007 Share Posted 26 July , 2007 I'm having similar trouble in the US with it. The amazon site (US) has "preorder this here" but has the publication date as last year... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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