Guest Philip Evans Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 I know this may seem a silly question, but what was the punishment for falling asleep while on duty while in the trenches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 449 men were sentenced to death by Field General Court Martial for ' sleeping at post ' of whom 2 were shot at dawn. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Evans Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 But how did the other 447 soldiers get away with their lives? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 Generally Commuted to 2 to 5 years penal servitude although one got 3 months Field Punishment No 1 and a very few got 10 to 15 years PS. To take examples from Gerard Oram's Death Sentences passed by the British Army 1914 - 1924 edited by Julian Putowski Private, HLI FGCM for sleeping at post, 28/5/1917 France & Flanders commuted to 2 years PS. Private, Dublin Fusiliers, FGCM for sleeping at post, 5/6/1917 Salonika, commuted to 5 years PS Two Privates, S Lancs, FGCM for sleeping at post, 7/2/1917 Mesopotamia, executed 19/2/1917 sentence confirmed by Gen Maude despite appeal by CO and GOC 13th Division. They were forward sentries found sitting down leaning on the rear of the trench sleeping which is different from falling asleep over your rifle on the parapet I suppose. I think they still didn't deserve to be shot though, hard labour would have been more appropriate - just my opinion. Aye Malcolm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mutley Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 There is an account of a solider being found aslep in "Some Desperate Glory" the diary of Edwun Campion Vaughan. In which he is unable to find the gas sentry, Pte Dredge, "....We found him halway down the steps of the next entrance - fast asleep. Woke him with a few well chosen words and left him under arrest." and later remarks that ".... if he had cahrged him officailly. I t would have to be charged by court martial and the penalty would be death." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trenchwalker Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 after living in a ww1 trench for 3 night and doing gas watch every 3 hours all day and night i can see how it could happen. but what is the punishment for casting your arms in the face of the enemy as my gtgt grandad did this when his bayonet snaped whilst combat in the enemy trench he then procded to use it as a club that then broke.so he dumped it. so he crawled back to the lines only to a 7ft M.P stairing at him who took him back as fair as we know he spent one night in the cells . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cliff. Hobson Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 The following is an extract from an account written by a man I knew and may I say greatly respected. " I forgot to say I was caught asleep one night while on sentry in the front line one November night I was stood leaning in a corner on the fire step fast asleep with cold and having no sleep to speak of for 3 days and nights the Officer on patrol fired a revolver close to my ear, say about half a yard away, he told me after, or else I thought I was done for, I saw stars and he laughed at the joke". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malcolm Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 The following is an extract from an account written by a man I knew and may I say greatly respected. " I forgot to say I was caught asleep one night while on sentry in the front line one November night I was stood leaning in a corner on the fire step fast asleep with cold and having no sleep to speak of for 3 days and nights the Officer on patrol fired a revolver close to my ear, say about half a yard away, he told me after, or else I thought I was done for, I saw stars and he laughed at the joke". Probably had more effect than seeing a man shot at dawn and saved a lot of hassle to all concerned!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob HAmilton Posted 20 November , 2003 Share Posted 20 November , 2003 Judging by everybody's comments my great uncle got off very lightly. Here is an extract taken from his service records at the NA/PRO. 21/6/17 Field General Court Martial for Conduct to the Prejudice of Good Order and Military Discipline in that on the night of 14/15 May 1917 about 2:30am, when posted as one of a covering party in front of Villers Plouich, was asleep. Found guilty and reduced to the ranks. He was Lance Corporal Alexander Trueman, serving in the 6th Ox & Bucks and was reduced to Private. I don't know any other details as I haven't had a chance to look at the war diaries. By the way does anybody know where Villers Plouich is ? Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jock Bruce Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 Sleeping at post is the type of offence that is usually dealt with 'informally' , although perhaps not a dramatically as Cliff describes. I've been punched awake by an officer for giving into 'the 3 o'clock nod' - totally against all military rules but effective and leaving me with a clean sheet. Most good officers and NCOs recognised that even in the face of the enemy men who are desperately tired will fall asleep. You can mitigate this by short stags, sentries in pairs, asymetric reliefs (i.e. you relieve the members of the pair at different times), paying frequent visits to sentries (but then when do YOU sleep), etc. Jock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 S'pose they were a bit different, John Laffin again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geoff Parker Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 Although falling asleep on sentry has been a crime for centuries, the Romans used to stone culprits to death, and I realise that if there was not a punishment for it everybody on sentry would just go to sleep when they felt like it. However being executed for a such normal act has always struck me as severe especially as in a lot of circumstances the victim has probably gone without sleep for a considerable period. I know from personal experience what its like doing a guard stag in the early hours of the morning after a full days work, especially when you're in a woods somewhere with nothing to look at and no one to talk to. Everytime you look at your watch its only two minutes since you last looked, your eyelids are getting heavier and heavier and you're staggering around like a drunk trying to stay awake. Its definitely not easy. I've actually fallen asleep when going to ground during a skirmish attack up a hill during a training exercise with thunderflashes and rifle fire going off all around me, and I wasn't the only one. You can't beat fatigue. Geoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Jeff Floyd Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 Having found a couple of sentries asleep on duty, I was always in a quandry about how to handle it. I one case, if I had reported it officially, the sentry would have been up on serious charges (I was Air Force, he was Army). Instead, I handed the problem off to an Army warrant officer who proceeded to handle it in a personal and unofficial way (the private probably still has trouble sleeping). However, draconian measures have to available. As harsh as the punishment is, and as common as the problem is, one death sentence wakes up an entire command for a long time. Nobody notices when the sentence is commuted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob Coulson Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 Rob, Villers-Plouich is near Cambrai. Bob. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 21 November , 2003 Share Posted 21 November , 2003 Sort of sleep related……….I did hear a tale (which could very well be apocryphal) that sentries would stand on guard having fixed bayonets & would rest the underside of their chins gently on the end of the bayonet. The point being (no pun intended) if they started to nod with fatigue, the bayonet would give a little jab to the chin & keep them awake. Like I say it sounds a bit apocryphal because it sounds so dangerous. Also is it physically possible to do? How tall would a soldier need to be to be able to fit his rifle with an attached bayonet under his chin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest paddy Posted 22 November , 2003 Share Posted 22 November , 2003 Will About 2 inches, I'd say What say ye Malcolm ooRoo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob HAmilton Posted 22 November , 2003 Share Posted 22 November , 2003 Bob Many thanks Rob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest lesley Posted 22 November , 2003 Share Posted 22 November , 2003 Philip, Not a silly question at all. As with most areas of military discipline there were a wide variety of punishments handed out. Approx 40 soldiers of the Ox & Bucks LI were court martialled for falling asleep. The punishments ranged from one death sentence - commuted to 2 years hard labour through to 12 days detention! The majority received either hard labour or penal servitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
john w. Posted 22 November , 2003 Share Posted 22 November , 2003 Taken from the Manual of Military Law 1914 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Philip Evans Posted 23 November , 2003 Share Posted 23 November , 2003 Thanks everyone! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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