Difference between Merchant and Royal Navy

[Guest mancunianangel]

Hi there

I was wondering if anyone could help My nannas brother was in the Merchant navy and something was mentioned about his boat being sunk in the war and was rescued oddly enough by his brother who he hadn't seen for years and he was in the RAF I dont know when this was,but how could I find out when this happened I appreciate many boats were sunk. He was born in Bristol but moved to Manchester Would this make a difference to wether he joined the Royal or Merchant Navy and what is the difference?

many thanks

Jan

[John_Hartley]

Jan

Welcome to the Forum.

I'm afraid that you seem to have very little information that's going to help. Without knowing a date or the name of the ship it really is going to be impossible to find out. As you say, there were so many sunk.

The basic difference between the two navies is that the Royal Navy is the one that does the fighting. The Merchant Navy is cargo or passenger ships. The fact that he lived to Manchester doesnt really make any difference. My guess is that he was in the Merchant Navy because that's what his full-time job was.

I take it from your "handle" that you are from the Manchester area. Are you old enough to remember when the Manchester Ship Canal had lots of ships coming up from Liverpool to the docks at Salford. It's only about 20 - 30 years ago when it really stopped. There would have been a surprising number of local people who earned their living working on the ships.

John

[hmsk212]

Hi Jan

My guess is that this was more likely to have happened during WW2 as he was rescued by a brother who was in the RAF. Any family memories about your great uncle no matter how small could help you in this quest. Do you know his approximate age/year of birth as this would help confirm if he was too young to serve in WW1. Any photos the family may have of him in uniform are also a great help. If you can lay your hands on one and post it on the site we may be able to narrow the field down for you.

Cheers

Steve

[Guest lesley]

My understanding of the difference was that if you were a seaman working in a maritime occupation you would normally have joined the Merchant Navy and would usually be involved in transporting goods etc. The Royal Navy enlisted men from all walks of life and were the naval fighters.

Hope this helps

Lesley

[Ian Underwood]

The Royal Navy enlisted men from all walks of life and were the naval fighters.

Its also the case that many Merchant Mariners served 'in the front line' as quite a number of Merchant ships were armed with 'popguns' (usually 4 or 6" guns) and used for scouting and patrolling duties and were attached to Royal Navy squadrons. These are usually referred to as 'Armed Auxilaries' or 'Fleet Auxilaries' and in WW1 these merchant mariners are entitled to the same medals as Navy personal.

Ships of all shapes and sizes were armed and sent into service, ranging from clapped out tramp steamers right through to luxurious ocean liners. 81 of these auxilliaries were sunk in WW1 all listed here

slightly offtopic, but there was only one battle in the War where two armed ocean liners squared off against each other. The British 'Carmania' and the German 'Cap Trafalgar. The later being sunk by the former.

On the morning of the 14th September, 1914; off the western end of the island of Trindade in the South Atlantic, the SS Cap Trafalgar, 18710 tons, was surprised in the act of coaling by the British cruiser HMS Carmania, 19524 tons, Capt. N. Grant R.N. At first the Cap Trafalgar made off at high speed before later turning to engage the enemy. Both ships began firing at 7500 yards, the larger 4.7 inch guns of the Carmania doing great damage to the hull of the Cap Trafalgar. The fire from the Cap Trafalgar was at first too high, but as the ships closed she began to score, setting the Carmania on fire under the forebridge and cutting her main water pipe so that the fire could not be brought under control. After an engagement lasting one hour and forty minutes the Cap Trafalgar was heavily on fire and sinking. Towards the end of the action she tried to escape but her engines were not equal to the strain and she finally capsized to starboard before sinking by the head. Five lifeboats crowded with survivors were picked up by the German colliers, the Carmania being still on fire and too badly mauled to render assistance. The fierceness of the fight may be judged by the fact that the Carmania was hit by 79 projectiles. All her navigational instruments and communications gear were destroyed and she was escorted to the port of Gibraltar in a very battered condition by the cruiser HMS Cornwall

[healdav]

You need to be very careful about terminology here asit has changed considerably over the years and was a bit fluid through the war years.

A 'Fleet Auxiliary' was usually a ship owned by the RN, but manned by Merchant seamen. They were usually store ships, oilers, etc. Today they are known as the Royal Frleet Auxiliary, are still owned and tasked by the RN and still manned by merchant seamen.

To complicate matters there are all the host of harbour tugs and tenders, which were and are manned by civilians (who would resent being known as merchant seamen). These now, I think, go under the umprella title of 'port auxiliaries.

You really do have to be careful.

Oh, and to confuse matters, the RFAs are actually operated as stores ships by civil servants (I was once one of them), a world unique. Today they usually have an RN helicopter aboard as well, with crew.

[Guest mancunianangel]

Hi all and wow Thank you all so much for the infomation you have given me I will have a word with his daughter and see what I can found I am definatly the most inquisitve in the family which is also why I am doing my family tree. Yes John I am from Manchester and a stones throw away from Manchester Ship Canal. Yes I remember how many ships used to travel up the canal Still now though they manage to catch me out going to and coming from work as I have to go over the swing bridge to Trafford. I still love watching them pass (although not when im late for work!! ) They are mostly scrap metal cargo ships I think go to Liverpool my kids call them the green boats I think they are mostly Irish of origin.(because of the flags not the colour he he )

I will see what I can dig up. Thanks once again Jan