Stephen Barker Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 I'm currently researching these two battles. I'd be grateful for your thoughts regarding books which deal in some detail with these two actions particularly well in your opinion. Thank you Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joan and Terry Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 I have several books about 3rd Ypres that mention the battles you refer to,they are The Battle Book of Ypres by Beatrix Brice which is covers the most reports on the two battles. Passchedaele by Nigel Steel and Peter Hart The Road to Passchendaele by John Terraine Joan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 Passchendaele and the Battles of Ypres 1914-18 by Martin Marix Evans. The Battleground series covers some actions. In Flanders Fields by Leon Wolff. That one is a bit long in the tooth now but is a well written if somewhat biased account of 3rd Ypres. Almost all the books on this battle should carry a health warning. This battle stirred up deep emotions and still does. Possibly the most emotive of the WW1 battles. Read as many as you can before forming an opinion. Plumer, Gough were both involved in this battle so their biographies would be relevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
squirrel Posted 6 February , 2007 Share Posted 6 February , 2007 Worth a look at the Official History as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I'm currently researching these two battles. I'd be grateful for your thoughts regarding books which deal in some detail with these two actions particularly well in your opinion. Thank you Stephen The operational orders for 11th Div - Battle of Broodseinde are on my website. www.ypressalient.co.uk I have found 'With a Poppy and a Prayer (Officers Died at Paschendaele 31st July - 10th Nov 1917) by Keith Parry' a useful ref book. As yet though I have not found any book that deals with either battle in detail. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I'll second 'Poppy and a Prayer' - but it can be hard to find and a bit of a slog. Yet it rewards perseverance. Leon Wolff's book is now very creaky - and reviled in some corners - as having really given impetus to the 'lions led by donkeys' school of history it has taken so long to shake. Similarly I don't commend Martin Marix Evans' books. They seem rather 'instant' and of little weight. I'd add: "Passchendaele: The Untold Story" by Prior and Wilson "Passchendaele in Perspective" Ed. Peter Liddell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I'll second 'Poppy and a Prayer' - but it can be hard to find and a bit of a slog. Yet it rewards perseverance. Leon Wolff's book is now very creaky - and reviled in some corners - as having really given impetus to the 'lions led by donkeys' school of history it has taken so long to shake. Similarly I don't commend Martin Marix Evans' books. They seem rather 'instant' and of little weight. I'd add: "Passchendaele: The Untold Story" by Prior and Wilson "Passchendaele in Perspective" Ed. Peter Liddell Phil, apart from " Poppy and a Prayer", which I have not read, we seem to be in agreement. Your post brings up a point which I hinted at in mine. Every book brings something of its own to the table. It would not be published otherwise. I am always at a loss when asked about which book to read. My practice is to read everything I can lay hands on. Only in this way can a reader hope to overcome prejudice in any one book. I would never say, " do not read x". Even the real stinkers Only by reading it for yourself can you form an opinion. The Donkeys set me off on a hunt for more information about this war which robbed me of both my grandfathers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 Tom, Thanks.. but by means of slight self-defence.. As someone who's written and been published I am loath utterly to demolish others' efforts (unlike some of my academic associates, who take a perverse glee in it) as I know the labour involved, but please note I didn't say "Don't read this". Terribly presumptious. I hope I phrased it more carefully. However, as much as any view of a book is subjective, I hope I've read enough now to try and guide people who ask to the better ones (yes, subjective, but..). The first books you read can be very formative. And if they're regarded as bad ones by experts and specialists (I wouldn't personally presume too far in those areas) misleading impressions can be gained. By all means, read the bad alongside the good. But can it hurt to be forewarned of the pitfalls? (A colleague at work is reading a high-visibility, high profile book by a successful author who is not an expert in our field. But because of his reputation, people will read it. My co-worker - who is an expert, and a considerable one - almost has the veins standing out on his temples, he thinks it's so bad. And plain wrong. But he's determined to finish it and counter it when asked). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Barker Posted 7 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I agree it's good to try out different texts, in this case I'm looking to pinpoint the two battles mentioned above. Some texts are more detailed than others and therefore more useful. I've read broadly about 3rd Ypres and am therefore looking to focus in more now. I appreciate your thoughts so far. Stephen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 No defence necessary, I wasn't criticising you in the least. On the contrary, I was congratulating you on sharing my opinions. I was pointing out a dilemma, I think everyone should read as widely as possible and I agree that , when asked for a recommendation one can only say what one feels. I hope your colleague survives. Are you trained in cardiac resuscitation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 7 February , 2007 Share Posted 7 February , 2007 I agree it's good to try out different texts, in this case I'm looking to pinpoint the two battles mentioned above. Some texts are more detailed than others and therefore more useful. I've read broadly about 3rd Ypres and am therefore looking to focus in more now. I appreciate your thoughts so far. Stephen Probably best to get hold of Battalion, Brigade and Division Diaries and O.O. for the battles. You would be amazed at what is omitted from books. Although as I sit surounded by hundreds of books and Diaries etc for the Battalion I am writing about, maybe I am now less amazed Not sure why Broodseinde and Poelcappelle do not have their own specific books as they deserve a closer look. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Moretti Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 (snipped) Similarly I don't commend Martin Marix Evans' books. They seem rather 'instant' and of little weight. I'd add: "Passchendaele: The Untold Story" by Prior and Wilson "Passchendaele in Perspective" Ed. Peter Liddell I'd second P&W's "Passchendaele". As far as MME's books go, yes, they are lightweight. On the other hand, I suspect he is writing for the newcomer to WW1 history. Anyone who's read even as deeply as Prior and Wilson, never mind going to the PRO and reading war diaries etc, has moved beyond Marix Evans' works (and I'd argue that that means most of the people on this BB), but you have to start somewhere. And there are people who are not voracious bookworms, to whom "instant and lightweight" constitutes the only sorts of books they might ever read - surely we must cater for them too. They can also be good "summary" books to read or flick through on the train! (His "over the top" and "1918" are, in paperback version, the ideal 'commuter size books'). I think some of the primary-school-level picture books I used to read (many pictures, some text) ought to be rewritten from a non-Donkey perspective. I might have been interested in WW1 a lot earlier! There is no such thing as a book you should not read; there are only books you would not recommend. Even "The Donkeys" isn't that bad when you make allowances for the fact that Clark wrote it with Liddell-Hart's help. That explained a great deal, and I was able to shrug off the mendacities! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Molkentin Posted 3 September , 2007 Share Posted 3 September , 2007 I'm currently researching these two battles. I'd be grateful for your thoughts regarding books which deal in some detail with these two actions particularly well in your opinion. Thank you Stephen You must put Bean's account (in the Australian Official History) of Broodseinde on your reading list, particularly to get a sense of how the battle moved along at a company and even platoon level. You can view scans of the entire Australian official history at www.awm.gov.au I would also check out the relevant war diaries. Some of the Australian brigades are available online at the same as above. They should contain battalion commanders' reports of the battle, maps and operations orders. All the best with you research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J Banning Posted 3 September , 2007 Share Posted 3 September , 2007 I'm currently researching these two battles. I'd be grateful for your thoughts regarding books which deal in some detail with these two actions particularly well in your opinion. I would like to think that the chapters on Broodseinde and Poelcappelle in Peter Barton's 'Passchendaele - Unseen Panoramas of the Third Battle of Ypres' have some interesting material. Then again, I freely admit to being biased on the subject.... Reviews of the book can be found HERE Good luck with your research, Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armourersergeant Posted 4 September , 2007 Share Posted 4 September , 2007 I have the war dairy of 62nd brigade, part of 21st div, which was invovled around Polygon Wood and thus involved on the flanlk for Broodseinde. regards Arm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sjustice Posted 4 September , 2007 Share Posted 4 September , 2007 Without knowing what your goal is I'd say (from the English-speaking Allies perspective) you need the relevant official histories of GB, Anzac and Canada as a minimum for a detailed but non-specific view of the operations of 3rd Ypres. For personal narrative (but very informative), review the contents of Lyn MacDonald's book. Try these editions: J. E. Edmonds, Military Operations, France and Belgium, 1917 Vol II: Messines and Third Ypres (Passchendaele) 7 June - 10 November (London, 1948) C. E. W. Bean, Official History of Australia in the War of 1914-1918 Volume 4: The Australian Imperial Force in France, 1917 (Sydney, 1941) G. W. L. Nicholson, Official History of the Canadian Army in the First World War (Ottawa, 1964). L. MacDonald, They Called It Passchendaele : The Story of the Battle of Ypres and of the Men Who Fought in It (London ; New York, 1993) Kind Regards, SMJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IanA Posted 4 September , 2007 Share Posted 4 September , 2007 I'm very surprised that there has been no mention of 'The German Army at Passchendaele' by Jack Sheldon which I'm halfway through reading at the moment. This book brings something wholly fresh to those of us who do not read German or have access to the German regimental histories. I would say that it is absolutely essential reading for anyone wishing a complete perspective on the battles making up 3rd Ypres. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 4 September , 2007 Share Posted 4 September , 2007 I agree Ian. I have both his Passchendaele and Somme books. Both well worth a read. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kevin O'Marah Posted 4 September , 2007 Share Posted 4 September , 2007 I'm halfway through Massacre at Passchendaele, The New Zealand Story by Glyn Harper, very good, mainly covering 4th October to 12th October with some background information, which coverd the area and dates that was of interest to me. Together with Trench map Zonnebeke 28 N.E.1 edition 3.A But as the title says covers the battle for Passchendaele but well worth reading. As mentioned above there are many good books that cover this topic. Hwyl Kevin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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