InkyBill Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 Hi Pals, help required please A man i'm studying (Pte Charles Bailey) served with the 6th Battalion London Regiment, he was killed in the Ypres Salient on 24th July 1917 during the preliminary bombardment for 3rd Ypres. His service record no longer exists and i'm having trouble linking him to either the 1/6th or 2/6th Battalion. (I must stress at this point i have not consulted the battalion war diaries which would tell me where these two battalions were on this date). The 1/6th arrived in France in March 1915, Charles MIC states he was only entitled to the BWM and VM which means he must of landed after 1915. Therefore would i be correct in thinking that whilst in England he was attached to the 2/6th and may have been drafted to the 1/6th or did he arrive with the 2/6th in January 1917 when this second line battalion crossed to France. Another clue lies in his service number, he was 322774 but his MIC says formally 5630. Checking those men who died around the same time as Pte Bailey using SDGW the majority are men of the 1/6th according to CWGC. Any Ideas Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 Marc I would say probably 1/6th as 47 div were in the salient at this time. If you look at the BW&VM medal roll of the 6th (WO 329 /1915) rather than the MIC it will give you the dates that he was in France, which should give your answer. ALL the bns of the London Regt have this which is very useful. 5630 was his pre march 1917 service no. I have been looking at the numbering in the bns of the London Regt, and from what I have seen (based on the Silver War Badge Roll and knowledge of prewar TF recruiting in London) most bns had got up to about 2000 at the outbreak of war. I have focused on the 19th Londons and to a lesser extent the 7th, and 5630 looks to me to be from no earlier than mid 1915, and possibly into very early 1916. I would guess without digging around the SWB roll that he most likely enlisted in the period c August - Oct 1915. He could possibly be a Derby scheme man. 322774 is the new 6 digit number that was allocated to him as part of the renumbering of the TF in March 1917. It is hard to tell much from this without knowing how it relates to the 4 digit number sequence. Each London battalion was allocated a block within the range of 200001 (1st Londons) to over 800001 (30th Londons) Whilst in England he could also have been with the 3/6th formed according to James' Brit Regts in early 1915. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InkyBill Posted 3 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 3 December , 2003 Thanks for your help Charles, I must say i also came to the conclusion that he was probally a Derby Man. Next time i'm at the PRO i'll check both war diary and Medal Rolls. What info can i expect to find in the SWB Rolls and where or in which Ref No are they kept in ? Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 Marc, the SWB Rolls that you will need are those for the London TF which are in 18 volumes WO329 / 3160 to WO329 / 3177 inclusive. I have recently finished going through the whole lot (thats 5881 pages!) looking for 19th and 7th London men. I suggest you pull the first 5 volumes since the men in these were discharged well before the Armistice and are listed by their 4 digit (pre Mar 1917) number. Later volumes only have 6 digit numbers. You will find 6th London men scatted throughout in one and twos as well as larger blocks of a whole page or two. Here is part of an example page of 19th London Regt men: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 And here is the other half of the same page: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 2/6th Londons were part of 58 Division. The division did not move to The Salient until late August 1917 so it looks like your man was 1/6th Londons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 3 December , 2003 Share Posted 3 December , 2003 As you can see each page gives: enlistment date discharge date reason for discharge whether served overseas most of the volumes also give the age at discharge too. Hugely useful data when studied en masse - I got enlistment dates for over 1,100 19th Londons which greatly advanced my understanding of recruitment in the bn. In you case, by looking at the first few volumes you should be able to find enlistment dates for several 6th Londons. If I were you I would look in quite a wide range - say men with numbers from 5,100 to 6,100 inclusive. This should pull out a few who are close to your man. One word of warning. By the time you get into late 1915 there were quite a few blocks of men who had been transferred between various TF units. This happened a lot within the London Regiment, and also with other TF units. I have found drafts of 4 E Kents, KRRC and RAMC men into the 19th. This has meant that 19th London men in the high 5000s and up to 7000 in fact enlisted somewhere else at an earlier time than their number alone might suggest. One way of checking this in the case of your man would be to look at SDGW and see if the men with numbers in the similar range to him have anything listed in the additional information field as a former unit. I note his service record does not survive, but it might be worth trying to find SRs for men with similar numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InkyBill Posted 4 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 4 December , 2003 Thanks so much Charles for taking the time to explain the SWB Rolls in such detail, its much appriciated and makes alot more sense now. Thanks Mark for your peice on the 6th Bn, it seems he was a 1/6th. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ste Posted 4 December , 2003 Share Posted 4 December , 2003 Charles, it looks like you have copied the pages using a digital camera. Is this correct? i am thinking of getting one, with the same purpose in mind. I'm interested to see that your shots are perfectly legible. Regards S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Ste - do get a digital camera, its essential in the PRO - a search will reveal a very useful thread on this with much advice on buying one (Martin Wills is your man here). Please note that I am using a prehistoric (well 4 yr old) camera that was good at the time. It is now less good having been dropped once and I found that it didnt bounce, now held together by tape. It is only 1.3 M pixels - a decent modern one should be c 4 M pixels, and would give better pictures than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clive Harris Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Mark, Charles Fair would be the man to give you the full story regarding TF London Units, I think given his original number he was cetainly a 1/6th man, the 2/6th as part of the 58th London Division were up near the Hindenberg Line in June 1917 and don't arrive on the Salient until September. The 3/6th don't live blighty but do supply the other two battalions with draughts from time to time. I knew a vetern that served in the Post Office Rifles, he once told me that the The "Cast Iron Sixth" were also known as the "Fleet Street Pals" as they contained so many journalists amongst their ranks, I have not heard this anywhere since however. Good luck with your research. ( Having written all this I see Charles has already replied to you confirming the above - at 2AM!! were a 24 hour city Charles but try and sleep sometime ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InkyBill Posted 6 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 6 December , 2003 Thanks Clive, it all helps. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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