Guest Pete Wood Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 I am hoping that the new format on the forum, where a soldier is in the 'Remembering Today' section, will help me improve my knowledge of units about which I know very little. I am also hoping that I can learn from some of the more experienced forum members, just how to carry out research on a soldier who has died. So the first thing I did was to look up Sjt Cecil Tiley's details on the Commonwealth War Graves Commission Debt of Honour Register This shows me the following: Name: TILEY, CECIL FRANK Initials: C F Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Serjeant Regiment: Hampshire Regiment Unit Text: 2nd Bn. Age: 20 Date of Death: 05/12/1916 Service No: 29553 Additional information: Son of Mr. and Mrs. James Tiley, of 64, Church Rd., Tovil, Maidstone. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. E. 26. Cemetery: GROVE TOWN CEMETERY, MEAULTE On the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom, I find the following additional information: Enlisted: Bournemouth Residence: Maidstone Kent Died How: Died of Wounds His residence appears to match the next of kin details on the CWGC register. So although he lived in Kent, as did his family, he chose to enlist in another county. Next I used the cemetery details in the CWGC to find out more information. This gives me the following information: In September 1916, the 34th and 2/2nd London Casualty Clearing Stations were established at this point, known to the troops as Grove Town, to deal with casualties from the Somme battlefields. They were moved in April 1917 and, except for a few burials in August and September 1918, the cemetery was closed. Grove Town Cemetery contains 1,392 First World War burials (1,391 identified). The cemetery was designed by Sir Edwin Lutyens. I next look on The Long, Long Trail which can also be accessed by clicking on the top left hand corner of this web page and look up the section - Tommies: all about the British Army of 1914-1918 Near the bottom of that page - in the MEDICAL section - I open the page on Casualty Clearing Stations to find out more information about 34CCS: The Casualty Clearing Station was part of the casualty evacuation chain, on the lines of communication. CCS's were located on or near railway lines, to facilitate movement of casualties from the battlefield and on to the hospitals. Grovetown: 34CCS Sep 16; 56CCS Oct 16; 2/2nd London Sep 16 - Apr 17 Near Bray sur Somme So I know that Sjt Tiley was likely moved from the battlefield to the CCS, where he would have then been moved to a hospital if he had not died here of his wounds. This, I assume, means that his wounds were received relatively recently. Next I looked at the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom to to see if any other soldiers had died around the same time. While there are just a few in November, it seems that the 2 Hants had not been in a major battle. I have a few general books on the Somme. But these seem to show the main offensive was over in November 1916. So I am now guessing (!) that Sjt Tiley was probably wounded by shellfire or a sniper...... From his age, and his rank, he must have been highly regarded. I have looked up the 2 Hants on Google to find out that 2 Hants were part of the infamous 29 Division and were previously in Gallipoli. From the Long, Long Trail's order of battle, I know which brigade they were in also. But how do I find out more information on Sjt Tiley....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 TPots Well done. It shows what can be learned from the comfort of your armchair. You are going to be busy every day doing this! Especially as I know what units will be appearing - some will need some serious digging. However, I had hoped the feature would stimulate this type of interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alison Arnold Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Teapots According to the 1901 census Cecil was born in 1897 at Tovil in Kent. Father as we know was James age 33 born in Bradford Wilts? Mother was Alice Tiley born 1874 in Maidstone Kent. At this time there were no other siblings. James occupation is given as Blocksmith, Paper Mill. Next I go to FreeBMD to see if his birth index has been transcribed that shows Cecil Frank Tiley born in theDecember quarter of 1896. Registration district of Maidstone. Interestingly James married Alice in September quarter of 1896 again the registration district of Maidstone. Mothers maiden name appears to be Cooper. So we have young Cecil to the age of 4. Anybody else got any suggestions? Ali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 I guess the next place I would go, Teapots, is to the Metropolis, to NA-PRO. Medal Index Card and Medal Rolls Personnel papers (burnt and unburnt) War Diary Imperial War Museum for divisional, regimental and battalion histories (if they exist) British Museum Newspaper Library at Hendon for the Maidstone and Bournemouth local papers - may be mentioned on enlistment, departure, home on leave, wounded and finally his death. Were you to score in all of those sources you would be well-informed about Sjt Frank Tiley. You'd also have been pretty lucky!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Racing (I think we should always use first names amongst Pals) Good bit of quick research here, mate. I take Terry's point that it's not going to be practical for someone to do this every day. But if a Forum member who had a specific interest/knowledge could post then it would spread the load and would, no doubt, be of interest to others. For example, if I spot a 17th Manchester in due course, I will be happy to post chapter and verse. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 This thread has been quite heart-warming really. I have just seen Teapots, Ali & Greenwoodman describe about to the letter how I research local casualties.........I must be doing something right if others follow the same procedure Will (feeling all smug & not quite so amateurish as usual ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 This is great. In all probability, nobody has given this guy a second thought for decades. Now here he is for all the world to see. Michael Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marc Thompson Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 As he's a 2nd Hants chap I'll certainly make a point of looking for his papers when I am at the PRO/NA next week. According to the regimental history the 2nd Hants suffered 24 killed and 79 wounded between November 1st 1916 and March 31st 1917. Although 29th Division twice carried out minor offensives during the winter, 88th Brigade was not employed in either. German shell fire was heavy, especially in retaliation for raids or bombardments, but it did not do much damage. The battalion saw a good deal of the front line NE of Leboeufs in November and the first half of December, in trenches which heavy rain had reduced to a deplorable state. Four weeks 'out' in the Cavillon area followed. I am currently compiling the medal rolls for the Hampshires and recording the casualty lists from the regimental journals so will have a look for Sjt Tiley there. His name is not recorded on any war memorials in Dorset according to the book 10,000 Fallen Remembered on Dorset War Memorials. Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greenwoodman Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Michael, you make a good point, and an outcome that I'm sure Chris and Terry would have wanted. Let's hope that, despite Terry's concern, there is a new thread started every day! Sometime, around June 23rd 2004, a name will go up in red and someone will post a photograph and complete history, with the words -"He's on my local memorial!!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 At this point having done "the basics" it is worth asking for any further information on the really excellent "The Great War Forum". Someone out there will have a copy of the 1881 census and will check out his father for you: Dwelling: Whiteheads Lane Census Place: Bradford On Avon, Wiltshire, England Source: FHL Film 1341494 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 2051 Folio 18 Page 29 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Edmund TILEY M 47 M Road, Somerset, England Rel: Head Occ: Blacksmith Sarah TILEY M 43 F Bradford, Wiltshire, England Rel: Wife Occ: Retired Dressmaker James TILEY U 13 M Bradford, Wiltshire, England Rel: Son Occ: Porter At Wine Stores Margaret A. TILEY U 11 F Bradford, Wiltshire, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar William Jno. TILEY U 8 M Bradford, Wiltshire, England Confirming that the his father was born in Bradford (Wilts), son of a blacksmith and worked, at the age of 13, as a "porter at wine stores" and had a brother and sister (in 1881) and lived in Whiteheads Lane. No guesswork at this point about Mrs Tiley, as we know her maiden name and year/place of birth we can fairly deduce that she belonged to this family in 1881 Dwelling: Charlton Street Census Place: Maidstone, Kent, England Source: FHL Film 1341221 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 0928 Folio 103 Page 32 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Edward COOPER M 38 M High Halstow, Kent, England Rel: Head Occ: Miller (Journeyman) Ellen COOPER M 37 F High Halstow, Kent, England Rel: Wife Alfred COOPER U 18 M Wye, Kent, England Rel: Son Occ: Paper Cutter At Mill Charles COOPER 15 M Aldington, Kent, England Rel: Son Occ: Employed At Paper Mill Mary J. COOPER 13 F Aldington, Kent, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Ellen COOPER 11 F Aldington, Kent, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Rebecca COOPER 9 F Maidstone, Kent, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Alice COOPER 7 F Maidstone, Kent, England Rel: Daur Occ: Scholar Edward J. COOPER 5 M Maidstone, Kent, England Rel: Son Martha M. COOPER 4 F Maidstone, Kent, England Rel: Daur Si it looks as if the grandparents started married life in Aldington, Kent and moved into Maidstone. It looks as if the boys of the family all found work at the paper mill. It looks as if James married into the family and took a job at the paper mill. So there we have some family background. The 29th Division does have a history, but not a roll of honour. Given that we have the burial details a polite request on "The Great War Forum" may put you in touch with someone going to the battlefields, or even someone living there who might be close enough to Grove Town Cemetery and able to visit and take a picture for us. Who knows, there might be an interesting inscription on the headstone? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Richard I don't have any concerns. I would love a new thread with this much investigation done each time making these names live again. It would be more than I had hoped for. I will be waiting for the day somebody shouts "That's my grandad". And here I am waiting up till midnight just to see the name change - and I know who it's going to be ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 A full circle! Martin mentions a paper mill near Maidstone - They were possibly Aylesford, Imperial, Tovil or Empire Paper Mills. I started this thread in a way by putting Sjt Tiley's name in the database and I used to work at those paper mills in the late 1960s !!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 There is the possibility that he might be detailed on the Maidstone War Memorial. So many memorials are transcribed on the web these days that it is worth trying googling for this memorial. Sadly, there does not seem to be a transcription, but there is a picture which appears to show a ceremony there (perhaps the unveiling). See: http://www.footstepsphotos.co.uk/Kent/ken6.htm Of course another forum member may live nearby and be able to check the names on the memorials. Now that someone has identified the (likely) paper mill in question one could always see if it still there, and wonder if it had a memorial of it's own. Perhaps an ex-employee might know? If not, there is always the National Inventory of War Memorials held at the IWM. Who knows what will fall out next? Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Aylesford Paper Mill is certainly still there although under adifferent name. It can be seen from the motorway en route to the Channel Tunnel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 5 December , 2003 Share Posted 5 December , 2003 Now that his entry has disappeared from the top of the page it is probably worthwhile repeating the couple of lines that kicked this all off. Our man was described succinctly as: Sjt Cecil Frank TILEY, 29553 2 Bn, Hampshire Regt Age 20, who died on 05.12.16. Grove Town Cemetery, France Now is someone else going to start a thread about today's man. Pte John Alexander GRANGER, T/203530 6 Bn, The Buffs (East Kent Regt), who died on 06.12.17. Le Cateau Military Cemetery, France Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christine liava'a Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 A further step, which may result in living relatives, is to look for Tiley websites on Ancestry message boards Tiley message board or in GenforumTiley Family Genealogy Forum The Mormon Familysearch site could also be used Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MartinWills Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 I wonder if the time has come for Chris to use this thread as an exmaple of the basic research that can be done with the aid of The Long Long Trail, easily accessible sources of Info and the help of the pals. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 6 December , 2003 Share Posted 6 December , 2003 Nice idea Martin. I'll create a web page for it soon. Might also be worth an article for say "Stand To!". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 I have put messages on the Tiley family websites, and contacted the webmasters of the two sites that specialise in the Tiley surname. On one website I found the following information: James Tiley (b. 1771) was a blacksmith as were several of his descendants. There were branches of the family in several villages on the Somerset/Wiltshire border such as Rode, Beckington, Frome and Bradford-on-Avon. One branch moved to Maidstone, Kent and some members of this branch emigrated to Australia and to Canada in the late 20th century. I then used the www.google.com search engine to find the post code for Maidstone which is 'ME.' You need the postcode to search the online records of the British Telecom (BT) telephone directory. This yielded zero results. So there is no one, today, living in the maidstone area - with the surname of Tiley - who is listed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kate Wills Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 This may not necessarily be the case RT. The Tileys may be ex-directory (perhaps a victim of too many double-glazing calls), or they may have continued through a female line, or maybe there is someone in a nursing home, for example. Only a trawl through the present electoral roll could determine the absence, or presence, of Tileys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 I totally agree with you, Kate. That is why the last words of the last line say: "So there is no one, today, living in the maidstone area - with the surname of Tiley - who is listed. " The website info also suggests that SOME (not all) of Tiley family members are still living locally: ".....some members of this branch emigrated to Australia and to Canada in the late 20th century." I still think that there may be Tiley members with vaulable info, to be found. But I do take your point about the electoral register. Just how do you find out info on a name, without trawling through thousands and thousands of street names - when you have no other leads....?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 Kate/TPots Even the Electoral Roll may not answer the question. The Roll available for public inspection is no longer the complete version as electors now have the right to keep their name off the public version. Only certain people are allowed the full version - and that does NOT include any copy for public viewing - libraries etc. The restricted people allowed the full copy include local councillors, debt collection agencies etc and they are not allowed to show you a copy by law (fine up to £5000 for doing so!). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northern Soul Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 [On the Soldiers Died In The Great War CD Rom, I find the following additional information: Enlisted: Bournemouth Residence: Maidstone Kent Died How: Died of Wounds His residence appears to match the next of kin details on the CWGC register. So although he lived in Kent, as did his family, he chose to enlist in another county. ] From my own researches and use of Soldiers Died, I have come to the conclusion that the "lived/resided" entry actually refers to the n.o.k. rather than the individual soldier. After coming across many entries such as b. Town A, e. Town B, l. Town A I too wondered why someone should go so far from home to enlist. When such entries were checked against whatever biographical details I could find it transpired that in all cases the soldier was living away. This actually makes sense. The Army couldn't have cared less where a recruit lived; they were going to live where the Army told them! However, they would need to know the address of the n.o.k. - and this information is specifically asked for on the Attestation Forms, and I guess that in the main the geographical information in SD was compiled from this basic source. My thinking may be incorrect but it has allowed me to identify some names on local memorials e.g. Pte. T. Burns, b. Bury, e. Barrow-in-Furness, l. Bury - I asked myself the question why should anyone travel all the way from Bury to Barrow (pre-war judging by the Service Number) to enlist in the Lancashire Fusiliers when it would be easier to do so in Bury where, in theory, they already lived. The answer has to be that they were living in or near Barrow-in-Furness with their n.o.k. residing at Bury; hence the appearance of their name on a local memorial. Any thoughts? Andy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 7 December , 2003 Share Posted 7 December , 2003 The Roll available for public inspection is no longer the complete version as electors now have the right to keep their name off the public version. Good point, Terry. A few of my old school-chums organised a school reunion last year, when we all turned 40. We used a website called www.192.com which you can use to put someone's name into - and check the electoral role. Last year this very useful facility was free. It helped us track down 10 of our old classmates. But there were two people who we tracked down via other means, who were not listed on the electoral role (for a variety of reasons). What astounded me was how many people were still living within a 25 mile radius of our old school - about 60%. Of the remaining 40%, at least half of them still had close family who informed our old chums of the reunion. We managed to find 57 classmates, from a total of 63 (of whom three were found to be dead, which made us all pause for a few seconds). If any one can make the 192.com site work, it is a useful tool. For some reason, I can't get it to work, even though I have 8 credits. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Pete Wood Posted 9 December , 2003 Share Posted 9 December , 2003 Well thanks to a Mr Peter Tiley, who runs a Tiley family website and answered my request for information, we can build up a slightly better picture of Cecil and his relations. We knew that Cecil's grandfather (and great plus great-great grandfathers) was a blacksmith. James Tiley moved to Maidstone along with his brother William John. James, as we know married Alice Cooper. The couple had three children: Cecil Frank Tiley (born 1896) William James Tiley (1898) Winifred Edith Tiley (1899) When Cecil died of his wounds, his father (James) was living in Tovil, Maidstone. The family later moved to 87 College Rd, Maidstone - and now James was a porter. James died in 1947 and six years later, Alice passed away. We now know that Cecil's brother, William James, was married twice and died in Basingstoke in 1956. Winifred married a local man, Cecil E May (who shared the same forename as her soldier brother), in 1926. Sadly this is all the information we have on this branch of the family. We do, though, have lots of information on Cecil's cousins - all of William John's family. it is this branch of the family who emigrated to Australia and Canada. One of the Tiley girls married the infamous Richard Beeching - the man who changed the railway system..... I haven't given up all hope. There are just a few Tiley's in the phone book for Basingstoke. So I shall give them a try over the next few days...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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