Tommy Atkins Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 I’ve just finished reading Storm Of Steel. Seriously one of the best books I’ve ever read. The way Junger writes is on a par with any novelist, it’s so much more than a diary, his words bring to life the fight for survival in the hell of the trenches and beyond. Being English I’ve always been heavily bias to the English/Allied side of things, but this guy and his friends have changed my thinking a lot. A true warrior, though bloody lucky too, it must be said, spent bullets hitting his belt, ricochets grazing him, duds falling within feet of him and virtually his whole company being wiped out twice once at Guillemont and again on the eve of the March offensive. Sometimes you’ve got to wonder if fate played a card for Lieutenant Junger. The description of a trench raid and ensuing grenade dual at Cambria is utterly mesmerizing, I wonder like a moth drawn to the light bulb whether I could, if I had to? I doubt it. In his words….Of all the stimulating moments in war there is none to compare with the encounter of two storm troop commanders in the narrow clay walls of a line. There is no going back, and there is no pity. And so everyone knows who has seen one or the other of them in their kingdom, the aristocrat of the trench, with hard, determined visage, brave to the point of folly, leaping agilely forward and back, with keen, bloodthirsty eyes, men who answered the demands of the hour and whose names go down in no chronicles…. Another thing I liked about this book is that it tells of the ferocity of the initial bombardment on The Somme and the damage to moral and the German Army of the whole Somme offensive, often overlooked as ineffectual in the history books. Go tell Ernst Junger the artillery bombardment in the weeks leading up to Somme was ineffectual, go tell Ernst Junger the slogging offensive of 3rd Ypres was a useless failure. There is a delightful passage in the book where two worlds collide when Junger discovers a certain Captain Parrish’s recently and hurriedly vacated, dug out. The aforementioned ‘little surprise’ written about in To The Last Man by Lyn Macdonald. One thing was bought to my attention in this valuable tomb, the concept of unaimed machine gun fire, he mentions it on several occasions, one being, an English machine gunner had ranged his gun to shoot up in the air with the bullets raining down on Junger’s trench vertically, causing mayhem with shots in the head. I’ve never heard this before. A fantastic book I would recommend to you all if you haven’t read it already. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 Just a minor point. British and Dominion machine gun barrages were aimed, but not by direct sight. These were an example of indirect fire. The aiming involved similar processes to the initial aiming of artillery by map references. It was not possible to adjust the aim of a machine gun barrage by aerial or other observation. The goal, however, was to saturate quite large areas with MG bullets, so slight problems with aim of one MG was not going to make a significant difference to a barrage. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Moretti Posted 20 February , 2007 Share Posted 20 February , 2007 And at those ranges, they fall in a circle (or ellipse depending on range and striking angle) of some arbitrary diameter anyway, never on the same spot. The most accurate rifle one could take to the trenches probably never shot more accurately than a one inch circle per hundred yards ("one minute of angle") anyway; by the time you get out to 2000 yards for a long range barrage, your shots are going to be falling in a half metre diameter circle (or cone in 3D) at least, and some barrages were probably longer-ranged than this. Interesting point, Tommy, about the effect of the Somme and 3rd Ypres. You're right, and it's not given much attention by the history books (because understandably the Germans wanted to gloss over how much damage the British were doing, and because Lloyd George was - depending on who you read - intent on painting Haig etc. as failures). Even Terraine, from what works of his I have read, never goes very deeply into just how much the Germans were suffering. But for the Germans to call 3rd Ypres "the greatest martyrdom of the War" has to mean SOMETHING in the context of the Somme and Verdun. Even the most Haig-loathing anglophobic Lions and Donkeys crusader has to admit that the Germans went through hell there (or do they have the same attitude about Joffre and co?). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 22 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 22 February , 2007 Blimey only two replies (thanks guys BTW) I’m gutted! I was hoping this would prompt a little more discussion on the greatest war story ever told. Did I over sensationalize or has this book been done to death. Where are the stories of our heroes, they have Ernst Junger, we get the bitter, melancholy musings of Graves and Sassoon. Saying that, I’ve got With Machine Gun To Cambrai lined up next. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 Blimey only two replies (thanks guys BTW) I'm gutted! I was hoping this would prompt a little more discussion on the greatest war story ever told. Did I over sensationalize or has this book been done to death. Where are the stories of our heroes, they have Ernst Junger, we get the bitter, melancholy musings of Graves and Sassoon. Saying that I've got With Machine Gun To Cambrai lined up next. Hi Tommy, although a lot of the Pals will have read SoS I think you are coming up against the fiction/non-fiction bias. There was a thread on this at the beginning of the year which you can probably find on search. Most Pals reserve their real excitement for non-fiction. If your query had been expresed as an enquiry into how effective was indirect barrage by massed Vickers , you may well have roused interest from Pals who seldom if ever respond to a review of a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 Tom, SoS isn't fiction — are you confusing it with 'All Quiet' ? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 Welcome to the club of Juenger fans! Excellent observations. For me he is THE classic at all. My interest in the GW was awakened by his books. Only after that I started researching my Grandpa. So I am extremely grateful for getting in touch with the genre through his excellent books Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 With respect, Egbert, Juenger's work pales by comparison with that non-fiction classic "This is the secret of Granddad's Trunk" Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 i am honored Robert, but seriously the trunk would still reside in a dark corner of an attic, if not Juenger....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truthergw Posted 22 February , 2007 Share Posted 22 February , 2007 Tom, SoS isn't fiction — are you confusing it with 'All Quiet' ? Mick Sorry Mick, I meant biography. Fact based but not liable to checking and cross-checking in the way that, for instance, "Most Unfavourable Ground " would be. Much more ' literary' content than Official History for example, or German Artillery of the First World War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 26 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 26 February , 2007 Welcome to the club of Juenger fans! Excellent observations. For me he is THE classic at all. My interest in the GW was awakened by his books. Only after that I started researching my Grandpa. So I am extremely grateful for getting in touch with the genre through his excellent books So is Copse 125 as good? I've seen it on Amazon but it's round about 30 quid, seems a lot to take a punt on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 26 February , 2007 Share Posted 26 February , 2007 I enjoyed Copse 125 as well. Thirty quid is a bit steep though! It must be possible to get 2nd hand for less than that on abebooks.com. Yes. A quick check reveals starting prices as low as $11. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 26 February , 2007 Share Posted 26 February , 2007 Tommy, my personal favorite is indeed Waeldchen 125! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 26 February , 2007 Share Posted 26 February , 2007 Tommy, Which translation of Storm of Steel did you read — the original 1929 translation by Basil Creighton or the recent version by Michael Hofmann? Egbert has the advantage of having read both SoS and Das Wäldchen 125 (Copse 125) in the original German, but if you read the Hofmann SoS you will notice a considerable difference if you go on to read Copse 125, of which there is only one translation, again by Basil Creighton. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spike10764 Posted 26 February , 2007 Share Posted 26 February , 2007 Storm of Steel is a book that can arouse several feelings. I for one was not over keen on it the first time I read it ( I think it was Creightons version). The second time I read it ( Hofmanns) , I have to say, I got a lot more out of the book. Some people think otherwise, but I preferred Hofmanns version..... I've yet to read Copse 125.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 27 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 February , 2007 Tommy, Which translation of Storm of Steel did you read — the original 1929 translation by Basil Creighton or the recent version by Michael Hofmann? Egbert has the advantage of having read both SoS and Das Wäldchen 125 (Copse 125) in the original German, but if you read the Hofmann SoS you will notice a considerable difference if you go on to read Copse 125, of which there is only one translation, again by Basil Creighton. Mick The one I bought was The Hoffman one, 2003. I think he got awards for the translation. I like the way it's done Grunts and duck eggs, Death's Dance and l'eax d'offensive sort of thing. Junger mentions copse 125 in the last coulple of chapters of SoS. Is the book a more detailed account of his time spent there. Is it a labourious slog translation wise? Another thing he mentions his buddy 'Kius' on several occasions and describes his uniform as brown corduroy. Is this a translation error or were some officers kitted out in corduroy? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 27 February , 2007 Share Posted 27 February , 2007 Another thing he mentions his buddy 'Kius' on several occasions and describes his uniform as brown corduroy. Is this a translation error or were some officers kitted out in corduroy? Tell me more precise which chapter in order to identify the text location and I will check the original German version for errors Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 28 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2007 Tell me more precise which chapter in order to identify the text location and I will check the original German version for errors Yeah cheers Egbert, he (Junger) mentions Kius twice in the chapter The Great Battle, I’m sure he mentions him more but these are the passages I can recall. ….In some crater, I landed on top of a pistol-potting figure in brown corduroy. It was Kius, who was in a similar mood to me, and who passed me a fist full of cartridges by way of greeting…… ……A new cheer rent the air. From the right, where all afternoon they had been working with hand grenades, a number of Germans now ran across the road in support, headed by a young officer in brown corduroy. It was Kius…… S**t man I like this book more and more each time I read it. Kius was captured by the British in the assault on Sapignes, BTW. Incidentally why are you spelling Junger Juenger. It is Junger on my book cover. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 28 February , 2007 Share Posted 28 February , 2007 The surname is spelt 'Jünger' in German. Ü (u - umlaut) should be written as 'ue' if the umlaut is not used. Many English translations do not follow this convention. Another example is Jäger, which is often spelt Jager instead of Jaeger. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 28 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2007 The surname is spelt 'Jünger' in German. Ü (u - umlaut) should be written as 'ue' if the umlaut is not used. Many English translations do not follow this convention. Another example is Jäger, which is often spelt Jager instead of Jaeger. Robert To be fair to my book cover the umlat is used. Cheers though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 28 February , 2007 Share Posted 28 February , 2007 I wondered if that might the case . No worries. Hope you can get a copy of Copse 125 as well. It had a special significance for me because he mentions going up against my fellow countrymen near Rossignol Wood. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tommy Atkins Posted 28 February , 2007 Author Share Posted 28 February , 2007 I wondered if that might the case . No worries. Hope you can get a copy of Copse 125 as well. It had a special significance for me because he mentions going up against my fellow countrymen near Rossignol Wood. Robert Kiwis or Saffies? He mentions both in the Copse 125 bit of SOS, the South African Otago Rifles and a hand grenade duel with some New Zealanders in Hedge Trench, which cost a fair few of his comrades lives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 28 February , 2007 Share Posted 28 February , 2007 Kiwis - Otago Rifles. Otago is a Province in New Zealand. I went to the University of Otago Medical School. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 28 February , 2007 Share Posted 28 February , 2007 [1]….In some crater, I landed on top of a pistol-potting figure in brown corduroy. It was Kius, who was in a similar mood to me, and who passed me a fist full of cartridges by way of greeting……[/i] [2]……A new cheer rent the air. From the right, where all afternoon they had been working with hand grenades, a number of Germans now ran across the road in support, headed by a young officer in brown corduroy. It was Kius……[/i] The English translation is so different and shortened. It will not express the details of the heated moment of the raging battle -as if it is another book (no word of corduroy): [1]...."Bei einem dieser Spruenge stuerze ich in einen tiefen Trichter auf meinen alten Freund Oskar Kius von der Zweiten, der ebenfalls mit der Pistole im Anschlag liegt. Er steckt mir ohne den Kopf zu wenden, ein Munitionskaestchen zu, aus dem ich meine Magazine auffuelle." [2] "Ein neues Hurra erschuettert den furchtbaren Ort. Aus jenem Seitengraben, in dem wir es den ganzen Nachmittag schon arbeiten hoerten, bricht ein Sturmtrupp hervor, und vor ihm her fliegen die grauen Wurfkeulen. Noch einmal setzt fast unmittelbar vor meinen Fuessen ein schottisches Maschinengewehr zum Feuerstoss an. Es verstummt sofort unter den Schuessen und Wuerfen, die von allen Seiten auf seine Mannschaft niedergehen. Oben am Hang erscheint Oskar mit einem Stosstrupp; ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
egbert Posted 28 February , 2007 Share Posted 28 February , 2007 New Zealanders in Hedge Trench, which cost a fair few of his comrades lives. Here the English translation mentions "Hedge trench" which of course is an utterly wrong translation = Juenger correctly names the trench in the original version as the famous and well known "Heckenrosengraben" (Engl.: Dog Rose or Wild Rose) which run from Puisieux to Waeldchen 125 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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