andyspiller Posted 10 December , 2003 Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Learned Pals Another one from the archive. Better picture than the last time. This one is the wife's greatuncle. Looks pretty much like Civil Service Rifles. Interestingly, I went through various badge catalogues and came to this conclusion and told Mrs Spiller who then checked her family tree records and found that in fact he was in the Civil Service! Andybody care to comment. As ever kind regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Reed Posted 10 December , 2003 Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Certainly looks like CSR; and there is a 'J.Gurney' listed on p.440 of the CSR regimental history which contains a complete nominal roll. No other details shown. There is also a 'F.S.Gurney' listed on the same page, by the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Paul Thanks for you prompt response. My John Gurney survived until 1945 (b 1893). Would that be why there is no other info in the nominal role? I do not think that the other Gurney is related as the other two brothers (twins) were both in Middx Regt and were lost within a month of each other - one at 2nd Scarpe and one in Gaza! Once again thanks for you help Andy PS Saw you on the telly again this morning (Meet The Ancestors with The Diggers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 10 December , 2003 Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Andy - you might want to drop a line to a pal who uses the name of Ich Dien. She is researching the CSR and might be able to help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 10 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Charles A scholar and gentleman as always. Many thanks Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ich dien Posted 10 December , 2003 Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Oh yes, he looks very like CSR to me! I can offer the following: 2348 Pte J Gurney, 2nd Bn, C Coy, 11 Pln (also member of Transport section). He is listed as one of the original members of the 2nd Bn which went to France in Jun 16 (as part of 60 Div). If he stayed the course he will have done the 'Cook's Tour' ie Salonika then Egypt/Palestine, then back to France Jul 18 (in 30 Div). His number is fairly early but not pre-war. Probably he enlisted sometime during Aug 14 in the 1st Bn and was then moved over to the 2nd Bn when it was formed in Sep. Now in return pse will Mrs S tell me which CS dept he worked in? Are there any descendants? (F S Gurney was also in 2nd Bn but definitely has a pre-war number.) Hope this is helpful. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charles Fair Posted 10 December , 2003 Share Posted 10 December , 2003 Andy As a very rough guide to enlistment dates, I have been looking at these for two other battalions of the London Regt by looking at the Silver War Badge Roll for the London TF (WO 329/3160 to 3177). All the London TF battalion service number & enlistment sequences start on 1 April 1908 with number 1. Most battalions seem to have got to around 2000 by 3 August 1914. However, there was some variation, with some battalions running ahead of this rate (e.g. 14th (London Scottish), 21st (Surrey Rifles)). From what I have seen on prewar recruiting the CSR was running at a typical rate comparable with both battalions that I am looking at. Men who have the same number as your man in these two battalions have the following enlistment dates: # 2348 7th London Regt enlisted 8/9/1914 # 2348 19th London Regt enlisted 2/9/1914 I'd agree with Jill that you man could well have enlisted in August, but probably later in the month. Given the unique nature of the CSR and the class it was drawing from (there were a lot of civil servants in London) I would not be surprised if enlistment into the CSR in Aug and Sept 1914 was running well ahead of that into working class bns such as the 19th. In any case, I'm sure that he would have enlisted no later than early Sept. In the case of both the 19th and 7th, they were authorised to raise second line battalions from 1 Sept 1914. As far as I know, this applied to all units in 2nd London (47) Div. My 2348 of the 19th would probably have gone straight into the 2/19th before being moved into the 1/19th before it left for France in March 1915. You will be able to nail your man's enlistment date easily enough (if you can't find his service record) by looking for CSR men in the SWB Roll. Charles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ich dien Posted 11 December , 2003 Share Posted 11 December , 2003 Well Andy, it looks like you are going to have to find his enlistment papers, to settle this for us! I still tend towards August for your man’s enlistment, but Charles is right that if it’s August then it’s late August. By way of background, and for purposes of comparison with the ‘working class’ London battalions…... During August the CSR’s 1st Bn quickly filled up and a waiting list was formed in the expectation that a 2nd Bn would be authorised. The 2nd Bn opened its doors at Somerset House early Sep (I believe on the 1st) and began enlisting men from the waiting list, which by then numbered several hundred. These men formed what the regimental history refers to as ‘the nucleus’ of the 2nd Bn. If pos, I’d like to establish the cut-off point for the enlistment of the ‘nucleus’ from 1 Sep onwards. But the picture is somewhat confused by (i) numbers being issued in batches; and (ii) subsequent switching of large numbers of men between the 1st and 2nd Bns, as the former struggled to get up to the requisite number of ‘foreign service’ men. So far the lowest number I have with a confirmed enlistment in September is 2465 enlisted 1 Sep 14 ....which is not that far removed from Gurney’s number, I know. But there are quite a few with much higher numbers than 2465 with enlistment dates in the last week of August (presumably due to the ‘batch’ problem, as in (i) above). I do not despair of getting to the bottom of this for the CSR (and of other questions turning on analysis of service numbers) but need to find more enlistment dates. The SWB roll is a good source (and thanks for this earlier suggestion, Charles) but a touch labour intensive. So if anyone reads this who knows of any CSR men and has service number(s) plus confirmed enlistment date (ANY date, not just Aug/Sep 14), I would be pleased to get a mail from them. Jill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 11 December , 2003 Author Share Posted 11 December , 2003 Guys My wife's uncle responds "Jack worked in the Local Govt directorate, which up to 1945, when he died, was part of the Min of Health. At some time, possibly just before, or early in WW2, he was based in Leamington, but by 1945 was living in Maidenhead and presumably working in London. He was I think a Senior Executive Officer. He was in the Army for part of WW1, but may have been invalided out following a accident of some kind." Hope that this helps. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyspiller Posted 7 April , 2004 Author Share Posted 7 April , 2004 All Just managed to get the MIC for this chap. Appears that at some stage he was transferred to the Military Foot Police! Does anybody know if this could have happened as a result of the supposed story of being "run over by a tank"? I know that the father of a friend of mine was sunk in HMS Blanche in 1939 (1st destroyer t be sunk in WWII) and was then transferred to the Military Police for the rest of the war. Also any ideas as to MP records etc. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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