The Zimmermann Telegram

[Joan and Terry]

Have any members read this book,if so,what were their thoughts? At times I thought I was reading fiction not facts,some of what went on reminded me of that saying "Oh what a wicked web we weave e.t.c." I had a wry smile when reading the Kaisers thoughts on Japan and warning Europe on the "Yellow Peril",I wonder if Mr Hitler read the book and the bit about the future intentions of Japan,maybe if he had,he would have chosen a different friend?

Joan

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/The-Zimmermann-Teleg...1QQcmdZViewItem

[Borden Battery]

Here is a website to check out. Borden Battery

British Television - Channel 4: The First World War

This British television site, although brief in its treatment of non-British actions

does contain a number of interesting sub-sections including a discussion on the

start of the war, biographies, a war time-time, use of poison gas on Russian troops

near Bolimow in January 1915 and a photograph of the Zimmerman telegram which

contributed greatly to bring the United States into the war. [CEF Study Group –

Updated August 2006]

http://www.channel4.com/history/microsites/F/firstworldwar/

Here is a better website now ....

http://www.firstworldwar.com/source/zimmermann.htm

[Gyrene]

It's one of those books that I would like to read but isn't high on the priority list.

[Dolphin]

Joan

I've read it a couple of times. It's the best book that I know of that explains just how and why the USA went to War. The elaborate scheme used by the British to disclose the contents of the telegram, while still concealing their ability to break the German code, is fascinating.

Regards

Gareth

[bob lembke]

I would suggest care with Tuchman. I have not read this book, but reading a few pages of The Guns of August clearly indicates her extreme bias. We all have our biases and points of reference (I clearly state that my father and grand-father served in the WW I German Army), but her text just drips subjective bias, IMHO. According to my wife, the "Librarian of Fortune", among literary types she is considered a light-weight as a historian, more a "publicist" than a historian. But her book surely is very successful.

Interestingly, she is closely related to the Morgenthaus, father and son, Ambassador to Turkey and author of the Morgenthau Plan. The father's important book, which I have only partially read, is quite interesting and lively, but again is extremely and obviously biased and by modern standards would be considered clearly racist. Interestingly, Ambassador Morgenthau was an immigrant from Germany, where his family clearly had an extremely bad experience.

Bob Lembke

[Crunchy]

Joan,

I have read several of Tuchman's books, including The Zimmerman Telegram and The Guns of August . I thought both were very good and I did not think she dripped bias. Perhaps bias is in the eye of the beholder. I think her books are very good. I agree she is not a trained historian, being a jounalist by background, but IMO she is good, she writes well and her work is well regarded by many.

I agree with Gareth, it was the best book I have read on the issue. Read it yourself and form your own opinion.

Regards

Chris

[paul guthrie]

She's not a trained historian, I detect no bias at all, she had the ability to write well on subjects as disparate as the 13th century - A Distant Mirror - a wonderful book to WW1. The Zimmerman Telegram was the biggest incident leading to US entry. Our problems with Mexico were ongoing since about 1910 and a war was not far fetched at all.

[bob lembke]

I probably have not read my copy of The Guns of August in 30 years, but I peeked in a copy recently and read a page and ran into, paraphrasing from memory: "Monoceled (sp?) Prussian officers, great rolls of fat bursting out over their stiff collars, sat stuffing their faces with Belgian pastries ...." (I may have made up the last few words"). It was sort of like reading: "Enormously fat British 'Red Tabs', in immacuately tailored uniforms, rose from their nine-course French meal and drunkenly strolled into the HQ to plan another Tommy attack through mud that the staff officers had never seen." I don't think that you don't have to read a lot further.

Likewise, I read a bit of Ambassador Morgenthau's book about Turkey, and every few pages there was a phrase like: "(Turkish top leader) Yyyyyy Xxxxxx Pasha seemed rather civilized, and could even eat with a knife and fork, but once he began to deal with the issue, the beastal nature of the Turkish race became apparent." These were similar and perhaps worse comments about the Germans active in Turkey. I actually found the portion of this latter book that I read interesting, and might read the whole thing when I do my serious study on Turkey in WW I in a few years, but such comments certainly leaves little doubt about the attitudes of the authors, and more importantly, the degree of objectivity that they at least attempt.

I just pulled my copy of The Guns of August, and I have a slightly better impression than I have from memory, as I discovered that, although not actually footnoted, she did include some sort of "Notes" in the rear that might or might not suggest where she found something. But I must say that I rarely read secondary sources, other than those written by experts like Bruce Gudmundssen and Jack Sheldon, people with a strong military background, that are exhaustively footnoted, provide expert translations, and really are sort of a primary source more than a secondary source. Especially given her apparent predjuces, and lack of relevant skills and clear expertise, I really don't see the purpose of reading her. (Although I may do so again, some time.)

At least Ambassador Morgenthau, although openly and severely biased, and clearly participating in the great propaganda effort that poisoned the English-language publications of the period, was actually there, and interacting with the major players, and for that reason may well be worth reading, with caution.

I don't take anything at face value, including the things that my father told me and the things that he and my grand-father wrote from the front. If I find an important point in a translation, I often look up the original and do my own translation, and often find bad translations and even seemingly deliberate distortions. I read quite a bit more in German, French, and Italian than I do in English, and have worked a bit in several other languages, including an extremely painful attempt to translate Modern Turkish.

Bob Lembke

[bob lembke]

She's not a trained historian, I detect no bias at all, she had the ability to write well on subjects as disparate as the 13th century - A Distant Mirror - a wonderful book to WW1. The Zimmerman Telegram was the biggest incident leading to US entry. Our problems with Mexico were ongoing since about 1910 and a war was not far fetched at all.

Paul;

I think that I am thick-skinned in a sense, but at the same time I probably have very sensitive antenna for bias, at least that perhaps aimed in my direction. When I was a kid, kindergarden and 1st grade in the New York City public schools, the teachers would announce that the class was going to have a patriotic exercise, and drag me in front of the class and beat the c**p out of "the German kid". (We had been in the US for 20 years.) After two years my parents pulled me from the public schools and put me in a private school, where I was safer from the teachers (the kids were fine), and, more importantly, was pulled along in a socio-economic sense by a "better" class of fellow students; for example, being shown that an Ivy League education was better than New York University, etc.

So when I read comments like the two I paraphrased from Tuchman and Morgenthau alarm bells ring. If I read a book on the civil rights movement and the author describes "darkies" shuffling into church with their watermelons and banjos, alarm bells would go off, as well.

Bob Lembke

[Martin Bennitt]

I have four of Tuchmann's books, 'The Zimmerman Telegram', 'The Guns of August' , 'The Proud Tower' and 'A Distant Mirror.' I read them all some time ago, enjoyed them, learned a lot from them and don't recall much in the way of bias. I will clearly have to read them again.

cheers Martin B

[paul guthrie]

I have four of Tuchmann's books, 'The Zimmerman Telegram', 'The Guns of August' , 'The Proud Tower' and 'A Distant Mirror.' I read them all some time ago, enjoyed them, learned a lot from them and don't recall much in the way of bias. I will clearly have to read them again.

cheers Martin B

I have read the same four more than once and just don't see any bias, can't speak to Morgenthau.

[Halder]

I can read the Guns of August over and over again. Brilliant. I've always thought Joffre's "Gentlemen, we will fight on the Marne" to be one of the greatest quotes in military history.

Zimmerman Telegram isn't as enthralling for me because it's not about the battlefield, per se, but it's still riveting political history.

[bob lembke]

I will look at The Guns of August again. Perhaps I just cracked it open at the wrong place, and was put off. My serious 1914/Belgium work is a couple of years off.

Bob L.

[Crunchy]

Bob,

I read an article once which was a talk Tuchman gave on the way she wrote her history. In this she mentioned that all of her descriptive passages were drawn from contemporary documentary sources and photographs. She gave some examples one of which, if my memory serves me correcly, was of the sunset during the passage of one of the units of the BEF across the channel. She took this description from an officer's diary. She also mentioned a couple of examples in France which were drawn from a letter and an account written by a participant. I think one was of Joffre at lunch.

Like the others I see no bias in her at all although I can understand you bridling at the description of the German officers in Brussells - which could well be someone else's perception of them that Tuchman has used in her book.

I'll see if I can find the book and let you know.

Regards

Chris

[Martin Bennitt]

I probably have not read my copy of The Guns of August in 30 years, but I peeked in a copy recently and read a page and ran into, paraphrasing from memory: "Monoceled (sp?) Prussian officers, great rolls of fat bursting out over their stiff collars, sat stuffing their faces with Belgian pastries ...." (I may have made up the last few words"). It was sort of like reading: "Enormously fat British 'Red Tabs', in immacuately tailored uniforms, rose from their nine-course French meal and drunkenly strolled into the HQ to plan another Tommy attack through mud that the staff officers had never seen." I don't think that you don't have to read a lot further.

I think Bob's memory is a bit at fault, which is understandable after 30 years

The only passage I can find similar to one he remembers, in an admittedly quick skim-through, describes the entry of the Germans into Brussels:

'Cavalry officers provided a varied show, some smoking cigarettes with careless hauteur, some wearing monocles, some with rolls of fat at the back of their necks, some carrying English riding crops, all wearing expressions of studied scorn.'

My Bantam Books edition has a photograph of German cavalry officers in Brussels which doesn't quite back up her description but maybe there are others. Tuchman is very tough on German behaviour in Belgium, but she quotes numerous contemporary sources which are well listed at the back of the book.

I will give it another read soon and perhaps return. You have been warned.

cheers Martin B

[Joan and Terry]

Having now finished reading the book and also the views of members,I would like to thank everyone for their thoughts regarding the book and the author.I found the book very interesting,at times,had I not known it to be fact about the telegram,I could have thought it a good fictional book by writers like F.Forsyth or Robert Ludlum to name just two.

This last remark is in no way intended to cause an argument regarding the two authors,it is just how I thought the book came across to me.

Joan

[Kathie]

I have gone to a lot of trouble to acquire each one of Tuhman'sbooks. I think this thread raises a number of issues.

Firstly, what is a trained historian???? She went to Ivy League colleges, researched in archives amongst original documents and sources her writings. I can think of numerous writers discussed on this Forum who were not "trained" as historians in the sense that they read history at Oxford or Cambridge or a few other outposts not of the Empire but we dont denigrate them as "untrained".

Secondly, much of Tuchmans writings and talks on history were published in a fascinating volume whcih I can just see from this desk - "Practising History" - which I would commend to both the trained and the untrained. She writes about the use of original sources, the use of multiple sources, the importance of atmosphere, the ability to pick up on one fact to create atmosphere. theuse of corroborative detail. I certainly obtain the impression of a punctilious and careful writer. Perhaps it is the "corroborative detail" whcih suggest that her work is subjective and journalistic when it is not. This is, in my humble view, a great book to help in understanding how history is understood, interpreted and conveyed. I recently obtained antoher copy second hand from Amazon.

Thirdly, talk about visiting the sins of the fathers and grandfathers on the daughters. So what if Morgenthau is biaised or anything else. What does that have to do with his daughter or granddaughter. Is there something in the anti-semitism of the time which was used against Morgenthau himself?????

My not so humble thoughts. A trained historian I may be, but a practising lawyer I am.

Kathie

[Dolphin]

Kathie

I fully agree with you - Tuchman wrote histories that are well researched, informative and entertaining.

I was struck by one sentence in August 1914: "No more distressing moment can ever face a British Government than that which requires it to come to a hard, fast and specific decision." I don't see this as anti-British bias, just a statement of fact.

Regards

Gareth

[Martin Bennitt]

I have gone to a lot of trouble to ..snip... a practising lawyer I am.

Kathie

I would go along with that: I try to hold my tongue when people sniff, 'He/she is a journalist but not a historian.' I know my profession comes in for a lot of flak, more than some of it justified, but more than one colleague of mine has written enthralling, and well-sourced, history. One thing we tend to be trained in is how to write. There a lot of people with history degrees who have done the necessary work but the finished result is just plain dull. Other historians also do journalism, as do lawyers and politicians: one can wear two or more hats quite comfotably; often it helps.

cheers Martin B

[bob lembke]

I have gone to a lot of trouble to acquire each one of Tuhman'sbooks. I think this thread raises a number of issues.

Firstly, what is a trained historian???? She went to Ivy League colleges, researched in archives amongst original documents and sources her writings. I can think of numerous writers discussed on this Forum who were not "trained" as historians in the sense that they read history at Oxford or Cambridge or a few other outposts not of the Empire but we dont denigrate them as "untrained".

It is clearly an interesting question as to what is "an historian". The two widely accepted routes are to have read history and preferably to have an advanced degree in the field, or to be "well published" in the field. As Tuchman's book is a classic and successfully in print for 45 years she clearly scores on the latter criterion. Her credentials are certainly better than my own, for example; although I have studied American Government and Soviet Studies at university, my work was almost exclusively in mechanical and industrial engineering, regional planning, and regional science. Also, I am not yet published, due to a spectacular rupture with a co-writer, although I have one book contract and two options.

Much of my dismissive attitude toward Tuchman came from my wife, the most literary person I have ever met, who reads incessantly in many languages, and has been the foreign-language book purchaser for 29 years at one of the top US research libraries, and for another 15 libraries at her university. The spousal unit (quite an Anglo-phile, worked as an archologist in the UK several times, took course-work at Oxford twice, and an exchange student in Bath; for her "digging" in the UK she acquired her excellent Latin and Anglo-Saxon and her lesser Old Norse). She is extremely active on a very serious UK-based literary forum.

My "Librarian of Fortune" told me that Tuchman is not considered a "serious historian" in her librarian circles, but rather a "popular writer" and a "publicist". Perhaps she was being too critical. As I said, poking thru Guns of August for blabbing on this thread I have come to a better impression than mine of long before, but still not good enough to use her as a serious source. I also had a better impression as she has these "Notes" in the rear, which, although not formal footnotes, and in a form which could lead to confusion and error, are better than no "foot-notes" or "end-notes" at all.

Secondly, much of Tuchmans writings and talks on history were published in a fascinating volume whcih I can just see from this desk - "Practising History" - which I would commend to both the trained and the untrained. She writes about the use of original sources, the use of multiple sources, the importance of atmosphere, the ability to pick up on one fact to create atmosphere. theuse of corroborative detail. I certainly obtain the impression of a punctilious and careful writer. Perhaps it is the "corroborative detail" whcih suggest that her work is subjective and journalistic when it is not. This is, in my humble view, a great book to help in understanding how history is understood, interpreted and conveyed. I recently obtained antoher copy second hand from Amazon.

Had not known about this work at all. If I return to her and Guns of August I should certainly obtain this book as a companion volume. I am now (hopefully) of a more open mind about her.

Thirdly, talk about visiting the sins of the fathers and grandfathers on the daughters. So what if Morgenthau is biaised or anything else. What does that have to do with his daughter or granddaughter. Is there something in the anti-semitism of the time which was used against Morgenthau himself?????

I would certainly not judge her writing by her ancestors, but I had just discovered that she was related to this fascinating family.

Although the Morgenthaus of the period were of Jwish extraction, it is quite likely (being innocent of any real information) that they, like many if not most German Jews of the period, especially people who were publically ambitious, were either non-practicing Jews or had converted to Christianity. That of course was not an absolute bar to anti-Semitism in the Germany of the period or later periods. They emigrated from Bavaria in the 1860's. Bavaria and Austria were not a good place to be a Jew or a near-Jew during this period, quite a different place than Northern Germany, such as Berlin.

If you mean anti-Semitism in the US, where at the time of Ambassador Morgenthau's the family had lived for half a century, I doubt that his Jewish roots were a problem, and may have been an asset. I understand that during the second half of the 19th Century and the opening of the 20th Century there was a very politically powerful Christian movement in the US somewhat similar to the current "Christian Zionism" movement that seems to be impacting current US Middle Eastern policy (Quite intriguingly, perhaps its most influential theoriticial was one George Bush, Professor of Hebrew at New York University, and a direct ancestor of a certain George W. Bush), and that this Christian movement had an absolute veto on the choice of US diplomats for the Turkish postings, and were closely involved with the Christian missionaries in Turkey, who themselves had an important and controversial role in internal Turkish matters, and who were completely immune to Turkish law.

So it seems that the greater or lesser Jewishness of Ambassador Morgenthau was either not a problem or was important to him being appointed to his ambassadorship. It is interesting that the Ottoman government sometimes sent the Chief Rabbi of Turkey, a quasi-governmental official, to negotiate with Ambassador Morgenthau, according to his book.

My not so humble thoughts. A trained historian I may be, but a practising lawyer I am.

A trained historian I am not, a practicing historian I am.

Kathie

Bob Lembke

[Gyrene]

I just finished reading this book and thought it was quite good. She did seem to have an anti-German bias but it doesn't detract from the work.

[yperman]

^{I have re-opened this topic because I think there was a Congressional investigation between the Wars regarding why the USA entered the Great War. I wonder if someone could kindly point me at a book/link on this enquiry?}

^{As for Tuchman's book , if you put to one side aside the author's alleged lack of training as an historian, subjective character analysis and bias, surely the key question is did the Zimmerman telegrams actually push the USA into the war? She claims Zimmerman, at the time ,acknowledged the authenticity of the first telegram and the USA was undoubtedly waging a punitive campaign of sorts in Mexico. If she is right about the resulting US press furore and vote in congress being overwhelmingly in favour of war then can't it be argued that Admiral Hall and Room 40 won the war for the entente?}

^Yperman

[Guest]

Seems as good a place as any to add this article from The Spectator The greatest hackers of the first world war

 

Mike

[The Ibis]

On ‎7‎/‎24‎/‎2015 at 03:53, yperman said:

^{I have re-opened this topic because I think there was a Congressional investigation between the Wars regarding why the USA entered the Great War. I wonder if someone could kindly point me at a book/link on this enquiry?}

...

 

 

I think you are speaking about the Special Committee on Investigation of the Munitions Industry, better known to history as the "Nye Committee," which tried to prove that the so-called Merchants of Death (what would today be called the military-industrial complex) caused the US to enter the war.  The last I checked, Matthew Ware's book was probably the best on the subject. His PhD dissertation is online here: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc279357/

Edited 5 February , 2017 by The Ibis

[yperman]

21 hours ago, The Ibis said:

 

I think you are speaking about the Special Committee on Investigation of the Munitions Industry, better known to history as the "Nye Committee," which tried to prove that the so-called Merchants of Death (what would today be called the military-industrial complex) caused the US to enter the war.  The last I checked, Matthew Ware's book was probably the best on the subject. His PhD dissertation is online here: https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc279357/

Thank you very much  for the information and link!

 

Yperman