alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Erm... no idea if this has been invesitgated previously. I was looking at The Medical Front WW1 site, and came across some autopsy reports for men who died from Mustard Gas. There are service numbers and dates of deaths for the men, so I'm guessing it would be possible to work out who they are in most cases (except for the one listed as 'French Soldier'. I doubt even Stebie or Auimfo are that good!). However, I've no idea if the service numbers listed are BEF, AIF, CEF, NZEF... and on the MIC when I look up, there are multiple people with the same number - or no-one at all with that number! There are 25 cases listed here, but I'll list the case details so you don't need to look at the gruesome reports if you don't want to. First 10 cases: CASE 1.-M. L., 64329, Pvt. Co. L, 192d Inf. Died, October 28, 1918, 2 pm., Evacuation Hospital No. 7. CASE 2.-A. D., 1429216, Pvt. Hdqrs. Co., 39th Inf. Died, October 11, 1918, 4.45 am., Evacuation Hospital No. 6. CASE 3.-C. G., French soldier. Died, October 8, 1918, at 8 a. m., Gas Hospital, Julvecourt. Autopsy, six hours after death, by Capt. James F. Coupal, M. C. CASE 4.-H. R., 76213, Pvt. Co. B. 18th Inf. Died, August 8, 1918, Gas Hospital No. 4. Autopsy, 11 hours after death, by Lieut. Russell W. Wilder, M. C. CASE 5.-H. E. M. C.H. 3173285 Pvt. Co. H 16th Inf. Died ()ctober 4 1918 Evaeuation Hospital No. 6. Autopsy October 5 1918 -hours after death by Capt. James F. Coupal M. C. CASE 6.-W. D. F. 3173197 Pvt. Co. H 16th Inf. Died October 4 1918 at 2.20 pm. Gas Hospital Julvecourt. Autopsy October 4 three and one half hours after death by Capt. James F. Coupal M. C.. CASE 7.-V. O., 134765, Pvt., Battery B. 2d Mass. F. A. Died, October 13, 1918, Julvecourt Gas Hospital. Autopsy, October 13, at 2 p. m., by Capt. James F. Coupal, M. C CASE 8.-O. K. M. C.D., 45325. Pvt., Co. L, 18th Inf. Died, October 5, 1918. Autopsy at Evacuation Hospital No. 7, on following day, by Capt. James F. Coupal, M. C. CASE 9.-C. H. W., 101135, Pvt., R. A. F., 3 Kite Balloon Section. Died, October 23, 1918, at 7.05 a. m., at Base Hospital No. 2. Autopsy, two hours after death, by Capt. B. F. Weems, M..C. CASE 10.-B. B. 2252004 Pvt. Co. A 39th Inf. Died October 14 1918 10.45 a. m. Base Hospital No. 58. Autopsy October 15 23 hours after death by Capt. M. Flexner M. C. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 E.g. case 9 - I'm not coming up with anyone of that service number having been in the RAF/RFC when I look at the Kew MIC online. CASE 9.-C. H. W., 101135, Pvt., R. A. F., 3 Kite Balloon Section. Maybe they changed the numbers on the autopsies? Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swizz Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 I don't think I can really assist with the identification - but just wanted to say what a useful site that seems to be. I hadn't come across it before! Swizz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Could they be American as they mention Autopsys, 192 Inf etc. Possibly by checking for the doctors before the men might be profitable. The location of these medics could give an idea as to which Country they came from. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Good point, Steve. Er... can one look up american service numbers and names online? Or are we basically sunk if they're american? But that doesn't help with someone in the RAF. Yes, it's a great site, Swizz! I love medical information, and really want to know the details, so I find it fascinating. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Good point, Steve. Er... can one look up american service numbers and names online? Or are we basically sunk if they're american? But that doesn't help with someone in the RAF. Yes, it's a great site, Swizz! I love medical information, and really want to know the details, so I find it fascinating. Allie The doctors seem to have the MC - they should be in London Gazette and possibly the reason for getting it. My battalion had an American doctor and he also got the MC. The RAF man could have been attached to the Americans ! of cours eit may be that they had to keep their identities secret I may be wrong but if they are service numbers - BEF did not have 7 figure ones. After the war from memory. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 I've been looking up service number 101135. 17 matches in the MIC but none in the RFC or RAF. 1 match in the CEF, but he survived the war. 1 match in the AIF, I think, but the Australian archives are slooooooooooooow tonight. No idea if there is a match in the NZEF as I've not got access to the nominal roll and the NZ archives don't allow searching by service number. Wouldn't it be luverly if we could search the CWGC by service number? And here was me assuming M.C. in this instance meant 'Medical Corps'. *feels an absolute idiot* Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 I've been looking up service number 101135. 17 matches in the MIC but none in the RFC or RAF. 1 match in the CEF, but he survived the war. 1 match in the AIF, I think, but the Australian archives are slooooooooooooow tonight. No idea if there is a match in the NZEF as I've not got access to the nominal roll and the NZ archives don't allow searching by service number. Wouldn't it be luverly if we could search the CWGC by service number? And here was me assuming M.C. in this instance meant 'Medical Corps'. *feels an absolute idiot* Allie If they are not british it could be Medical Corps although Americans working with BEF got the MC. in the 101135 there is one RE. As the balloon Companies started in the REs - could it be him. In fact the RAF started in the RE's but thats another story 76213 shows 8 men. stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Medal card of Marsden, Alfred Corps Royal Engineers Regiment No 101135 Rank Sapper Can't find him on the CWGC, though. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 It can't be the Australian person with that service number as a. they're from WW2, and b. they're female. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
welshdoc Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 As the doctors appear to be American they will not be (and are not as far as I can see) in the London Gazette unless they were awarded medals as foreign nationals, thus differ from commonwealth soldiers. Therefore what the MC stands for is a mystery as the American do not (I think) have a military cross or any other award that fits the letters. Also it seems odd that all the officers had MCs! So Im guessing its more to do with their medical speciality (though I cant think of wht wou.d fit). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevem49 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Medal card of Marsden, Alfred Corps Royal Engineers Regiment No 101135 Rank Sapper Can't find him on the CWGC, though. Allie Back to the Americans then! They are also all 1918 so possibly they wanted to see how gas worked on the internal organs. Medical Corps sounds American as well stevem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 I'd suggest case 7 is an American. "2d Mass" = "2nd Massachusetts" John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stephen Nulty Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 The web site states "The following descriptions of the medical effects of Gas Warfare have been extracted from "The Medical Department of the United States in the World War", Volume XIV." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alliekiwi Posted 27 April , 2007 Author Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Scrolling down for something more likely to be British, we reach: CASE 19.-D. B., 187, Pvt., 1/4 Highlanders R. Died, October 23, 1918, at 5.10 a. m., at Base Hospital No. 2. Autopsy, four and one-half hours after death, by Maj. A. M. Pappenheimer, M. C. Heaps of MICs for service No. 187, but only two if you cross-reference 'highland'. Medal card of Crossley, Lee Corps: 11th Highland Light Infantry Regiment No: 187 Rank: Private promoted to Corporal and then Serjeant. Medal card of Thomson, John Corps: Scottish Rifles Regiment No: 187 Rank: Private But then he transferred to the Highland Light Infantry Service No. 37307 as a private. But can't find either of them on the CWGC. Did the americans have 'highland' units as well? And really low service numbers? I'm beginning to wonder if these are some sort of hospital number instead. Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Wouldn't it be luverly if we could search the CWGC by service number? Wouldn't an ideal world be nice.... Name: WHYMANT Initials: C H Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private 1st Class Regiment: Royal Air Force Unit Text: 3rd Kite Balloon Sect. Age: 37 Date of Death: 23/10/1918 Service No: 101135 Additional Information: Husband of Mrs. Whymant, of 19, Evison Rd., Rothwell, Kettering. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. H. 12. Cemetery: ETRETAT CHURCHYARD EXTENSION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Other than the RAF chap and teh Frenchman I reckon they are all American. Massachusetts Field Artillery is a give-away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Here is 187: Name: BROWN, DAVID ARNOTT Initials: D A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Unit Text: 1st Bn. Age: 28 Date of Death: 23/10/1918 Service No: 187 Additional Information: Son of George and Ann Brown, of Strathm/910, Fife. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. H. 11. Cemetery: ETRETAT CHURCHYARD EXTENSION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John_Hartley Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 I reckon they are all American. Massachusetts Field Artillery is a give-away. Glad someone agrees with me. Is there not a further give-away by the abbreviation "Pvt" for, presumably, "Private". Brits would abbreviate as "Pte", surely. Like CWGC, the online US site doesnt allow a search by service number. We may need to wait for US Pals to have done a day's work and got home, before they catch up with the thread and can offer advice as to a way forward. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Happy to decode any details of the autopsies if anyone is interested. Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest geoff501 Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Here is 187: Name: BROWN, DAVID ARNOTT Initials: D A Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Private Regiment: Black Watch (Royal Highlanders) Unit Text: 1st Bn. Age: 28 Date of Death: 23/10/1918 Service No: 187 Additional Information: Son of George and Ann Brown, of Strathm/910, Fife. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. H. 11. Cemetery: ETRETAT CHURCHYARD EXTENSION And the MIC: http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=2 Can't find one for Whymant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Happy to decode any details of the autopsies if anyone is interested. Robert What does 'violaceous' mean, Robert? Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CSMMo Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 Those are American units (except the French Soldier and the R.A.F., of course) they belong to and "Evacuation Hospital" is an American Army term still in use (equivalent, I believe, Casualty Collection Stations). Co. L would be American as well as (at that time) companies were lettered within a regiment, so A, B & C companies would be in the 1st Battalion, D,E and F in the 2nd battalion, etc. Another clue is the "Pvt" (still in use) as opposed to the Pte. abbreviation. I would be a bit surprised (and quite impressed) if someone figured out the soldiers involved, but they will undoubtedly be American soldiers of the AEF. Mike Morrrison Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 27 April , 2007 Share Posted 27 April , 2007 What does 'violaceous' mean, Robert?Marina, typically it refers to a purplish colour, often used in the context of skin lesions. Which article was this description used in? Robert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marina Posted 28 April , 2007 Share Posted 28 April , 2007 Marina, typically it refers to a purplish colour, often used in the context of skin lesions. Which article was this description used in? Robert The one about the gas victims, Robert. Horrifying. Marina Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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