MG 08/15

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Hello all,

I cannot locate my references on this weapon. I know the name indicates 1915 as a possible year of introduction but I seem to recall it was late 1917 or after that it reached the front.

Can anyone give me the date it was first sent to the field? Thanks.

Ralph

[bob lembke]

Hi, Ralph;

I have noticed this anomality. Without a single authorative source, my readings suggest that the MG 08/15 started appearing in the field in numbers perhaps in early 1917, possibly some in late 1916. Certainly not in 1915.

Bob Lembke

[RodB]

I've read a few articles that stated th mg08/15 was the machiine gun that did most of th damage on 1/7/1916. Can they be correct ?

[Chris Henschke]

Ralph,

The following extract is from 5th Australian Division Intelligence Summary, 0600h 12 March 1917.

'A prisoner of the 1st Machine Gun Co. of the 75 IR stated that he had heard of a new portable Machine Gun. He gives the following details.

(i) Very light in weight and two short leg to support the barrel.

(ii) Belt of about 80 rounds.

(iii) A light water jacket and all the breech mechanism reduced in weight.

(iv) Possibly a shortened barrel.

(v) The range to be the same as an ordinary machine gun.

Two other prisoners from the same regiment also heard of the approaching introduction of a new light machine gun, but could give no details concerning it.

The prisoners confirmed the training of Infantry in the use of machine guns.'

Certainly issued to most regiments in the Ypres sector at the level of 2-3 per company by September 1917. There were reports of 6 per company in a few cases (at that time), but that was highly unusual.

Chris Henschke

[montbrehain]

Did you see the photo i posted here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...mp;#entry729342 "MO"

[Jack Sheldon]

Ralph

The History of the Lehr-Infanterie-Regiment is an authoritative, trustworthy, source on a number of such questions because, in keeping with its peacetime training/demonstration role, its history includes articles concerning a number of technical and tactical matters relating to the infantry. According to the information on the 08/15, 'The first light machine guns arrived at the regiment in January 1917; on the main battle fronts they were in use earlier.' The only comment I would make is that they cannot have been used much earlier anywhere. The only light machine guns in use at the start of the Battle of the Somme were the Madsens - Musketen - of the Musket battalions. The few available were swiftly worn out and not replaceable so, in late 1916, the Musket Battalions were issued with captured British Lewis guns as a stopgap measure. They were early, priority, recipients of the 08/15 and that occured early in 1917 - like Lehr Infantry. So I would place the general appearance of this weapon as the turn of the year 1916/17. This tends to be confirmed by Balck in Entwicklung der Taktik im Weltkriege He states that it was the widespread appearance during the Somme of British Lewis guns that underlined that the introduction of light machine guns was 'a pressing necessity' and that, in the meantime, there was widespread use of Lewis guns. He also mentions that they were known as 'Bergmann' guns, a name that seems to have disappeared from use almost immediately. Balck states also that the initial issue was two per company, but that that increased over the next two years to six. That is quite believable, because there are accounts of units arriving in Flanders in late 1917 being issued with a further two 08/15s per company; priority presumably having been given to that front.

Jack

[TonyE]

The 08/15 went into production first at Spandau in late 1916 and probably some 2000 were made before the end of the year. The highest recorded 1916 dated Spandau gun is serial number 1787, whilst the lowest recorded 1917 dated gun is 2832.

The other six manufacturers of the 08/15 all started production in 1917, and of the approx. total of 200,000 MG08 and 08/15 guns manufactured during the war, over 80,000 08/15s were made in 1918 up to the Armistice.

It was the standard MG08 (usually referred to as the Maxim) that did all the damage on the Somme and it is one of those that is pictured at the Australian War Memorial in the above post, mounted on its 08 sled mount..

The "Bergmann" guns were an entirely different weapon, the MG15. This like the Maxim was originally a water cooled gun and used the same belts and 08 sled mounting, but was soon modified to the LMG 15. This was a light air cooled weapon which fired from an open bolt. It was soon modified again to fire from a closed bolt and became the LMG 15 n.A. (Neue Arte ot new type). One estimate is that the infantry received about 5,000 of these from about August 1916.

It was usually mounted on the same bipod used by the MG08/15 but there was also a small low tripod mount that was superior.

Regards

TonyE

[trenchtrotter]

I will stand corrected but the vast majority of MGs used in the latter stages of the war were the 08/15 versions. When one sees the photos of war booty captured in the second half of 1918 the 08/15 is the largest group seen.

I think the article that you saw that stated that the 08/15 was the main weapon used on the Somme in 1916 was from the Armourer magazine. It was incorrect and some venoumous exchanges took place in the letters pages that followed. The Armourer is a light hearted read but not very studious.

As has been stated the 08/15 was produced in 1916/17 and 1918. The majority bear 1918 dates. A total of about 130,000 were made, an astonishing figure.

I am priviledged to own gun no 1355 manufactured in 1918 by DWM the company who made most 08s but fewest 08/15s about 2000.

I could yarn on and on about the 08/15........facsenating!!!!

TT

[Cnock]

Hello,

I always understood that the MG 08/15 was developped in 1915 for aircraft armament.

For this role as an air-cooled mg it was already in production early 1916.

Regards,

Cnock

[trenchtrotter]

The MG 08/15 is definately not air cooled. It is water cooled and is very heavy. I think you have confused it! How they dared call it a LMG is beyond me.

TT

The MG 08/15 is definately not air cooled. It is water cooled and is very heavy. I think you have confused it! How they dared call it a LMG is beyond me.

TT

My example.

[Cnock]

Hi,

air colled mg 08/15 pictured in mg school, when the water colled MG 08/15

Hi,

air-cooled mg 08/15 pictured in mg school, when the water-cooled MG 08/15 was not yet in production

[Cnock]

Trenchtrotter,

The MG showed in my pic is the same weapon as on Your pic.

with shoulder stock, but perforated jacket, air-cooled barrel and lightened receiver casing.

From 1916 the synchronised MG 08/15 was twin-mounted on the German fighter planes, but without the shoulder stock.

Regards,

Cnock

[centurion]

Cnock I fear there may be a dating problem with your photo - the gun shown is the LMG08/18 which was effectively an air cooled 08/15 introduced in 1918 It was in total about 4.25 kg lighter than the 08/15 but suffered from rapid barrel heating that meant fire had to be ceased after about 250 rounds (it was possible to change barrels but this was a cumbersome process and difficult in combat conditions).

The 15 in the MG08/15 refers to the year in which the Gewhr-Prufungs-Kommission selected the design after trials to find an answer to the Lewis (one wonders if the fact that its designer was a member of the commission influenced the decision to select it over the Bergman or Dreyse designs submitted). It takes time to set up production lines and the gun did not start to reach German front line troops until sometime in the later half of 1916. Some guns were fitted with the Kasten 16 cartridge belt drum which resembled the drums used on aircraft observers weapons which may have given some people the idea that it was an aircraft weapon to start with. It is reputed to have been more reliable than the Lewis but was much heavier and less accurate.

The IMG 08 was an aircooled MG08 used on aircraft this was replaced in 1916 by the IMG08/15 an air cooled version of the MG08/15. This differed from the LMG 08/18 (confusing isn't it?) in a number of ways including not having an interchageable barrel and a slightly different different muzzle design. To confuse matters further in 1918 some IMG08/15s were pressed into service as infantry weapons

[bob lembke]

I will stand corrected but the vast majority of MGs used in the latter stages of the war were the 08/15 versions. When one sees the photos of war booty captured in the second half of 1918 the 08/15 is the largest group seen.

I am priviledged to own gun no 1355 manufactured in 1918 by DWM the company who made most 08s but fewest 08/15s about 2000.

TT

TT;

You certainly know more about these than I do, aside from actually having one, but your first statement above might be a bit misleading. The numbers captured do not necessarily reflect the numbers in use. As the MG 08/15 became available they were largely moved into the infantry companies, while the MG 08s were generally kept in MG companies and the MG Sharpshooters' Detachments, and the number of MGs in a MG company had been doubled about 1916. Tactically, there would be MG 08/15s in the front trenches, while the MG units were set up well behind the front trenches, often well away from any trenches (so as to reduce the possibility of their being knocked out in a pre-attack barrage), and the MG 08s were often fitted out with the telescopic sights, so that they could be quite useful from positions even several hundred meters behind the first trench.

Therefore, in many raids, attacks, etc. there could be equal numbers of the two weapons on the battlefield, but many more MG 08/15s might be captured. I have read, in the last month, about 80 French regimental histories, which generally itemize weapons captured in some detail, and in mid to late 1918 the French seemed to be capturing roughly equal numbers of the two types.

A couple of other factors. The MG 08s would be harder to move, but I think that MG units had light wagons to move them. The MG was the center of the MG unit, and the men might try harder to get them out; infantrymen might be more liable to toss the MG 08/15 in a tight spot. Also, in raids, etc., the attacking troops might be more likely and/or able to carry the more portable MG 08/15 back to their trenches.

I have an e-friend who has a fully operationable, fully licensed MG 08/15, which he drags to re-enactor meets to the obvious delight of the attendees. I would imagine that post 9/11 he is greeted with more raised eye-brows at the airport.

Bob Lembke

[Cnock]

The machine guns mounted on the planes in 1916 are called MG 08/15 by the Germans themselves.

That is what I wanetd to say.

Regards,

Cnock

[centurion]

The machine guns mounted on the planes in 1916 are called MG 08/15 by the Germans themselves.

That is what I wanetd to say.

Regards,

Cnock

I've made a slight error - its lMG lower case l (not upper case I) standing for luftkekhult (not to be confused with LMG with the upper case L standing for Lechte) so the lMG08/15 is an aircraft weapon air cooled, the MG08/15 a ground weapon water cooled and the LMG08/18 is a ground weapon which happens to be air cooled. (don't blame me I didn't design the numbering system ). The lMG08 and lMG08/15 were built by Parabellum and different internally to the MG08 and MG08/15 which gave them a higher rate of fire at the expense of less easily adjusted by the gunner (probably not an issue in the air when higher rate short bursts were more important than sustained fire). MG08 was probably shorthand for both types of gun but for stores and spares purposes it would have been essential to distinguish between them by using different prefixes.

[TonyE]

I agree with Trenchtrotter that most guns in 1918 were MG08/15s. The total of MG08s produced during the war was approximately 200,000, of which about 72,000 were 08s and 130,000 08/15s.

We know that about 80,000 08/15s were made in 1918 and from serial numbers it is possible to estimate that DWM made about 16,000 MG08s. Spandau made very few MG08s in 1918. Thus it would seem the majority of guns in 1918 were indeed 08/15s.

Regards

TonyE

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

Thanks for all of the interesting facts, points of view, etc. It was far more than I had expected.

I looked through several additional sources and came across one that indicated the MG 08/15 infantry MG was first introduced in December 1916 and started to arrive at different regiments in early 1917. I am sure that some received them before others.

Thanks again, I appreciate all of the help.

Ralph

[robwilliams]

I will stand corrected but the vast majority of MGs used in the latter stages of the war were the 08/15 versions. When one sees the photos of war booty captured in the second half of 1918 the 08/15 is the largest group seen.

I think the article that you saw that stated that the 08/15 was the main weapon used on the Somme in 1916 was from the Armourer magazine. It was incorrect and some venoumous exchanges took place in the letters pages that followed. The Armourer is a light hearted read but not very studious.

As has been stated the 08/15 was produced in 1916/17 and 1918. The majority bear 1918 dates. A total of about 130,000 were made, an astonishing figure.

I am priviledged to own gun no 1355 manufactured in 1918 by DWM the company who made most 08s but fewest 08/15s about 2000.

I could yarn on and on about the 08/15........facsenating!!!!

TT

TT,

And you have done so on many an occasion!!

Rob

[Chris Boonzaier]

I have a large collection of MG pics here, I am a big MG08 and 08/15 fan :-)

http://www.kaiserscross.com/56701/home.html

[Chris Henschke]

I downloaded Somme : Defeat into Victory and noticing the MG 08/15 used by the Germans at Thiepval in September 1916, remembered this thread.

It appears that the general issue (initially) for MG08/15s was anywhere between January 1916 and May 1917. As Jack Sheldon has stated, probably not before. These references may be of interest.

According to a captured order issued by the Minister of War on the 12th December 1916, every infantry company was to be issued with three light machine guns of the 1908/15 pattern by the end of February.

The detachments were to be provided by units themselves and were to be trained during January and February.

Ref : II ANZAC Intsum No. 281 2 Apr 17

New Type of Machine Guns. Each coy. has been issued with one gun and are expecting to be shortly issued with two more. Each gun has a crew of 4 men and 1 N.C.O. Our barrage prevented these guns from being used this morning. A prisoner does not consider these guns are a good weapon as they are too apt to jam.[Fusilier Regiment 90]

Ref : 1 ANZAC Intsum No. 286 to 6.30 pm 12 May 17

Each coy. has received one light M.G. and this number is shortly to be increased to 3.[iR 75 17 Div]

Ref : 1 ANZAC Intsum No. 289 to 6.30 pm 15 May 17

Chris Henschke