Brother-Bayonet Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 (edited) My Great-grandfather Maj William Delany served prior to WW1 with the Army Gymnastic Staff and was commissioned at the start of the war into the DLI. Eventually he transferred back to the AGS and retired in 1920 with the rank of Major. Family history says that he was called back up for service in 1921/22 for service with the Royal Irish Constabulary, however there is no record of this in his service record at the PRO. Can anyone suggest any further research on this? Also can anyone identify the badge on his left upper arm, seems to be crossed rifles and a crown? Thank you in advence, Paul Gray. Edited 3 January , 2004 by Brother-Bayonet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 3 January , 2004 Share Posted 3 January , 2004 The crossed rifles surmounted by a crown were worn by section commanders of the best shooting squadron or company in a regiment or battalion. The other possibilty is that these are crossed swords and a crown which would indicate best swordsman in a regiment, and in each squadron I'm not sure if there was direct entry into the Army Gymnastic Staff, but in the former case, I wonder if he had pre-war service in, say, an infantry battalion before transfer to that corps. Terry Reeves Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnreed Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Please find attached APT Corps badge. John Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackblue Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Is another possibility is the Marksmanship badge or 'Crossed Rifles'. Does he have a pip and a crown as rank Paul? You sure he didn't make Lt.Col? Tim Dawe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Bayonet Posted 4 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Thanks for the replies everyone. Firstly in the photograph I believe that he was probably given the rank of acting Lt Col when called back up for the Irish rebellion, but I can't confirm this as I can't get access to any records. The badge does not appear on any of his other pictures during his earlier service and would a Lt Col wear a marksmans badge or similar? Officers as far as I can remember from my army days don't normally wear trade badges. But I stand to be corrected. Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 I'm honestly not trying to be mischievious, but the badge and collars don't look 'upright' enough for the AGS/APTC crossed swords. What they do look like are the MGC's crossed Vickers! Now, cerca 1919-20, MGC officers stopped wearing the large, bronze crossed Vickers MGC badge, and took to wearing a 'collar badge' sized silver badge in the SD cap. Ideally, the collars were also silver, but I've seen plenty of cases of silver cap and bronze collars, which is what this looks like. Don;t have an electronically available illustration, but will try to ferret one out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Bayonet Posted 4 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2004 Just to clear up any confusion I've added two closer scans to show the badges more clearly. Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Bayonet Posted 4 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 4 January , 2004 And the second, Paul Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 My Great-grandfather Maj William Delany served prior to WW1 with the Army Gymnastic Staff and was commissioned at the start of the war into the DLI. Eventually he transferred back to the AGS and retired in 1920 with the rank of Major. Family history says that he was called back up for service in 1921/22 for service with the Royal Irish Constabulary, however there is no record of this in his service record at the PRO. Can anyone suggest any further research on this? Major William Delany: Born 23 Nov 1872 Spent 19 years and 309 days in the ranks. Commissioned as a 2nd Lieut. in the Army on 28 Sept 14 and attached to the Army Gymnastics Staff Appointed as a Temp. Lieut. in the 10th (Service) Bn, DLI from 24 Dec 14 to 31 Mar 15 Appointed as a Temp. Captain in the 10th (Service) Bn, DLI from 1 Apr 15 to 22 Jan 17 Appointed as a Temp. Captain, New Armies, on 23 Jan 17 Lieutenant in Army, 1 Jul 17 Appointed as a Temp. Major and Superintendent, Physical and Bayonet Training at Aldershot on 17 Sep 17 Mentioned in Despatches, London Gazette, 24 Dec 17. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 4 January , 2004 Share Posted 4 January , 2004 According to "The Handbook of the Order of the British Empire" he is listed as being gazetted as an Officer, Order of the British Empire (Military), in the London Gazette of 3 Jun 18. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Bayonet Posted 5 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 5 January , 2004 Dick, your knowledge amazes me. I took years to find out what you got in no time, thank you. Any suggestions about the Royal Irish Constabulary? Kew says should be with MOD. MOD says if not with Kew then must be lost?? Regards Paul. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 January , 2004 Share Posted 5 January , 2004 If you look closely, the arm badge is worn on a brassard. It is probably indicative of a staff appointment. It looks more like crossed rifles and crown, logical enough if bayonets enter inter the staff appointment perhaps. A better case could be made for crossed swords, but it just does not look that way. Regarding skill-at-arms [not, and never, "trade"!], the various crossed rifle badges were never for wear by officers, not even musketry instructors. The crossed rifles with crown [and nothing else, such as a wreath] were never for wear upper left arm as a stand-alone: for lower left, for lower right, and indeed above sergeants' chevrons both upper arms. In the modern army, officers are allowed to wear a very small number of qualification badges: parachute wings are an obvious example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Staffsyeoman Posted 5 January , 2004 Share Posted 5 January , 2004 The closer scans clear it up, as Daffy Duck says 'indoobitioobitooberly' - AGS/APTC! I apologise for the rush of blood, and to quote Mark Williams in 'The Fast Show'.. 'Oi'll get me coat..' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muerrisch Posted 5 January , 2004 Share Posted 5 January , 2004 The closer scans clear it up- AGS/APTC! Which scan is this, please? Do we agree or disgree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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