Chronicles of Ancient Sunlight

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I'm sorry. Maybe I should be more tactful. I rashly said how I felt. I should have known better, and thinking about it, you're right. I didn't mean COMPASSION. I should have made that clear, it was an incorrect choice of vocabulary. I meant it's common sense that Owen would have felt the sufferings in a different way, not necessarily more acutely, and I'm sorry John for the misunderstanding, clearly I provoked a strong response in you because you found my comments unsavoury. *sniffs* Please don't hold it against me???

[Paul Reed]

I have a child the same age as Katie. Quite frankly, if I heard a member of this forum speaking like that to them in public I would be shocked, and probably knock their block off.

Whatever her opinions, perhaps the adults can set an example by arguing in an adult fashion.

[charlesmessenger]

I have been following this thread with much interest, especially since I first came across Chronicle of Ancient Sunlight as a teenager and became engrossed by it. While Williamson's style of writing may not make him a 'literary great', Chronicle does provide a fascinating social history of the first half of the 20th century and to my mind is extremely readable. Many of the characters, too, are based on real people and part of the fun is trying to identify them.

I cannot subscribe to the notion that Williamson was insensitive because he joined the BUF. The reasons why he did so are made plain in the relevant volumes of the series and Tarka the Otter and Salar the Salmon are hardly the works of such a man. Many people between the wars felt that Western capitalist democracy as we know it was bankrupt of ideas, especially with national economies floundering. They therefore embraced the extremes of Communism and Fascism. It is also perhaps worth mentioning that some of the RAF casualties in Bomber Command's first significant raid of the war - against German ports in December 1939 - were, in fact, also BUF members. Please don't infer from this that I am a Fascist. I am merely a historian attempting to look dispassionately at events.

For those who have embarked on reading the Chronicle do persevere. I'm sure you will find enjoyment and interest. They are books which I continue to reread 50 years after I first encountered the series.

Charles M

[Max]

I have a child the same age as Katie. Quite frankly, if I heard a member of this forum speaking like that to them in public I would be shocked, and probably knock their block off.

Whatever her opinions, perhaps the adults can set an example by arguing in an adult fashion.

Paul, as you have failed to specify who you are referring to I can only take it that you meant me.

Katie made several assertions that I wholeheartedly disagree with, and further, would not stand up to any sort of proper review.

1/ "I do not believe Henry Williamson's fascism stemmed from any personal failing of his." - Surely, by definition, being a fascist has to demonstrate a personal failing somewhere along the line (racist, elitist, homophobe?)

2/ "Owen's homosexuality only made him feel more acutely the sufferings of his brother soldiers." - Completely and absolutely unproven.

3/ "empirical evidence" - Not empirical, and certainly not evidence..an opinion.

In my opinion Katies age has no bearing on the statements she made or the responses she has received other than for me to wonder what the hell is being taught in school these days. Katie has demonstrated by her answers that she is more than capable of holding her own in debate without threats of violence from you (BTW Paul, I doubt that you could reach my block to knock it off )

Andy

[Paul Reed]

As is all too common on this forum Andy, you haven't read this thread through, or my post, properly before you have made a post in response. For a start I haven't made any threats of violence against anyone, and my comments were directed at comments made after your points, to be honest.

Katie's age is an issue here when she has foul language levelled at her. If people cannot see that, then I am surprised.

[ianw]

Quite agree with Charles that the sequence is a great social history. It does have insights that are most interesting.

I suspect that John may not have been aware of Katie Elizabeth's youth. I think Andy is "harumphing" rather more than is necessary. If we want young blood on this Forum, might we not cut them a bit of slack - deploying a full 16 inch intellectual broadside against them does seem a bit uncharitable - no doubt Andy will claim he only used 5.9's but come on guys!

[Max]

For a start I haven't made any threats of violence against anyone,

"if I heard a member of this forum speaking like that to them in public I would be shocked, and probably knock their block off."

Sorry, I must have misunderstood the above

[Guest mruk]

I must admit to being put off the mans writings because of his political background....having said that being force fed Tarka the Otter at school didn't really endear me to him in the first place.

I had to endure 'Cider With Rosie' by Laurie Lee. Dreadful

Anti-intellectual and anti-feminist, and there's also the Women's Section of the BUF you may care to look at. Williamson, incidently, also contributed to 'Action', and other literary 'notables', including Ezra Pound and Wyndham Lewis, wrote regularly for 'The Quarterly', but as distasteful as Williamson's leanings may have been, I wouldn't totally dismiss him because of his political beliefs. Some of his writings, on the other hand, are complete and utter.....but he was also a man who knew what a war with Germany meant, and undoubtedly haunted by the sights he had seen as a younger man. In this he was averse to any further conflict with Germany, and the possibility of a full-scale European War. It's true, a war with Germany was not in the BUF's main interests, and I am no apologist, but it sounds like a case for appeasement to me, and an attempt to avoid the bloodshed he had previously witnessed in Flanders and France.

Dave

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I agree with Charles as well - the chronicles are excellent in their own unique way, and I shall certainly read more of them. Thank you for all the help and advice that has been given me.

[IanA]

Some of his writings, on the other hand, are complete and utter.....

Could you be more specific please?

[Guest mruk]

I'm getting a sense of Deja Vu here, Ian, and if I remember correctly, I think you once weighed in quite heavily in defence of 'A Wet Flanders Plain'.

Cheers,

Dave

[IanA]

Who me?

[John_Hartley]

my comments were directed at comments made after your points, to be honest.

Ah. You mean me.

Not for the first time, you manage a world-class pompous statement ( I still have your PM from months ago, which is a classic of the genre )

Handbags at dawn next time we meet at Kew, Paul?

[ianw]

"Wet Flanders Plain" is of course of specific interest to us Great War buffs and doesn't have to aspire to be great literature like a novel sequence.

I must say again that his politics have not obviously manifested themselves in the first 3 volumes.

[John_Hartley]

you found my comments unsavoury. *sniffs* Please don't hold it against me???

Not at all. And, of course not.

I simply disagree with your view that he must feel things differently because of his sexuality. It comes across as somewhat stereotypical, no doubt unintentionally.

John

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I've never read it, but if you recommend it, I will certainly try. A better read than the 'Chronicles' in your opinion?

[Guest mruk]

What is it you haven't read, Katie? 'The Communist Manifesto'...'Mein Kampf'...'My Life' [Oswald Mosley]

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

What is it you haven't read, Katie? 'The Communist Manifesto'...'Mein Kampf'...'My Life' [Oswald Mosley]

I have read two of those, actually. No, 'The Wet Flanders Plain'. Not a title I'd come across before.

[Guest mruk]

Touche, Katie. Touche.

There was a discussion on 'TWFP' a short while back. I've just been looking for the thread, but I think it must have been pulled. I recommended Keith Henderson and 'Letters to Helen'.

Cheers,

Dave

[Greyhound]

Here's the thread.

[linden]

Here's the thread.

[/quot

Wow ! This topic has moved on in mysterious ways since I last looked .

Williamson does write great social history , and I think he gives a very clear depiction of the way many people felt and behaved during his lifetime . You can follow the changes through his 70 - odd years . Everyone is so tightly buttoned-up in the early books , and Philip's insecurities about class are probably Williamson's own feelings . (It was interesting to look for the family in the census records . They are all there , including his German grandmother ).

The Fascism remains unpleasant , but a great number of people felt like that , even if they didn't follow Moseley . Again, it's a very accurate depiction of a facet of British history .

Shortly before his death Williamson was interviewed on TV by Kenneth Allsop , who had known and admired him since childhood . Allsop tackled him about the Fascism , and I believe they never spoke again . It was always a very difficult subject , and I've wondered if that's why his books seemed to recede in popularity after his death .

I always enjoyed him as a nature writer ; a successor to Richard Jeffries .

If you get a chance to watch the series "The Great War" , he's there , a shock of white hair ; white moustache ; dark eyes , talking about the Christmas truce . I think the excerpt may have been shown recently in a programme about the truce .

I reckon a lot of "Chronicle" and "Dream of Fair Women" is autobiographical , so , however good or bad the writing , you are reading how it all was for many people . You have the "flavour" of his life - the England he experienced ; who he was , "warts and all".

I discovered Henry Williamson's books whilst I was still at school , and though it's a long time since I read them , they are still vivid .

Thank you for introducing this topic !

Linden

[Dolphin]

I found A Chronicle of Ancient Sunlight to be an informative guide to the attitudes and social structure of post-Edwardian Britain. The battle descriptions in the 1914-1918 volumes are excellent, especially the account of First Ypres in How Dear is Life. However, I confess to having stalled in the mid-1920s when reading the series; I'll start again soon (as I've been saying for a few years now).

There's a very good companion to the four wartime books of the series in Henry's daughter Anne Williamson's Henry Williamson and the First World War [iSBN 0 7509 3552 9] which gives the real story of Henry's service, and puts real names to the characters in her father's books.

A character who appears in three of the Chronicle series is Tom Cundall, who is a schoolfriend of Phillip Maddison and an RFC/RAF pilot during the War. Cundall is the central character in the classic book of wartime flying, V M Yeates' recently re-printed Winged Victory [iSBN 1 904010 65 2]. Yeates, who died of tuberculous in 1934, was a Camel pilot on the Western Front, and he certainly knew what he was writing about. He was a schoolfriend of Williamson's, and Williamson included Yeates, disguised as the Tom Cundall character, in Young Phillip Maddison, A Fox Under My Cloak and The Golden Virgin in the hope that the name would be recognised, and Winged Victory would receive some publicity.

Gareth

[ian turner]

Here is my post 13.

In case of uncertainty, I am Ian Turner

Quote

It is worth reading the Chronicles even if for just an idea of life in the first half of the 20th Century. I particularly enjoyed the Great War volumes.

Maybe before that, have a read of 'The Wet Flanders Plain' - Williamson's account of a trip back to the battlefields. There are a few marvellous descriptions in there - I particularly remember the description of a troop train arriving at Pop, and the driver dashing through the station to avoid being shelled; the vivid description of the large shell passing overhead - like a diamond cutting a great arc in glass - well, anyway I won't spoil it with a misquote.

Don't get bogged down in politics, enjoy the read. He was a thorough researcher when penning his novels.

Unquote

In addition I would now also comment:

Instead of twittering on about politics and sexuality, for heaven's sake read the books and then decide.....

Ian

[truthergw]

Would it not be acceptable for me to pass over these books without reading them on account of the author's political beliefs? In the same way, if I were to look at the blurb on a book and find great play being made of the author's sexuality, might I not legitimately decide to put the book back on the shelf? The blurb is there to help me decide whether I would find the book worthwhile and so are the discussions in this thread. That said, fascism was still unknown when the pre war and WW1 books were written. I find it a bit of a red herring and doubt if we should place too much emphasis on the fact that the author was to follow that path much later. I take it we are not crediting Williamson with inventing Fascism or being clairvoyant in things political? If we are to criticise Williamson's views of the working class before and during the war, we must blame the prevailing political systems in Britain. That is the ones practised by the Liberal and Conservative parties.

[Steven Broomfield]

Instead of twittering on about politics and sexuality, for heaven's sake read the books and then decide.....

Ian

I agree. It's actually been a very interesting thread, and I may well look out CAS, but I am no more or less likely to read it because of the author's politics than I am to read or ignore Sartre because he was...well....French.

I found the Wet Flanders Plain a very good book (and will dig it off the shelf and re-read it on the strength of this thread; I may even look out Tarka (boys' Grammar School - we didn't do that sort of stuff, sadly), so thanks to all for reminding me of it. Patriot's Progress is also very good; I read it at roughtly the same time I read The Barber of Putney by (IIRC) J B Morton: both give a very good o.r.s view of the war and are well worth reading.

And please - can't we disagree without getting so personal about it?