seaney70 Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 If a soldier had served in 4 different units would his LAST unit be inscribed on his BWM and VM ,or the unit he served in whilst in the BEF? regards sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 His BWM and Victory would be named to the unit with which he first entered a theater of war. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
widwick Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Dick Would it not be only the Regiment or Corps? I thought only the 1914 Star had the unit included in the soldiers details. Thus if a soldier served in several units of the same regiment and had not qualified for the '14 Star the only way to find the first (or last) would be to look at the medal rolls or service records Tony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Yes, the BWM and Vict were named only to the regiment or corps and of course, for the army, officers' medals lack even that, except for the RFC. I had assumed that the "four different units" referred to in the original message meant different regiments, but as you indicate, if they were different battalions, there would be no way to tell that from the naming of the BWM or Vict. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broznitsky Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 If Infantry, medals to the CEF would have individual battalions named, thus 3rd Inf Bat or 29th Inf Bat; as discussed in a previous thread 99% would be named to the battalion that the man went overseas (F&F) went. If a Corps or Divisional outfit, then naming gets trickier. Perhaps the Mararishi of Medals, Guru David B. could step in here Peter in Vancouver Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 His BWM and Victory would be named to the unit with which he first entered a theater of war. Regards. Dick Flory Dick............You may have solved a little puzzle for me here.............therefore I assume that the relevant paperwork, MIC etc would also state the unit a soldier first entered a theatre of war rather than the last? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 therefore I assume that the relevant paperwork, MIC etc would also state the unit a soldier first entered a theatre of war rather than the last? MICs often have an embarkation date and theater of war and this is as far as I know, always the first entry into a theater of war. In addition especially for 1914 Star and 1914-15 Star trios the MIC also will indicate the qualifying unit for that award and sometimes the unit the soldier was in at the time the card was completed. Unfortunately MICs for soldiers who only earned WW1 pairs often do not show the embarkation date or the unit. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 MICs often have an embarkation date and theater of war and this is as far as I know, always the first entry into a theater of war. In addition especially for 1914 Star and 1914-15 Star trios the MIC also will indicate the qualifying unit for that award and sometimes the unit the soldier was in at the time the card was completed. Unfortunately MICs for soldiers who only earned WW1 pairs often do not show the embarkation date or the unit. Regards. Dick Flory Dick......that's great stuff...........my little puzzle has been answered... the soldier in question is my Great Uncle whose MIC shows his entitlement to a Trio & a battalion of the Royal Scots Fusiliers I never knew he served in - ...................all I need to do now is work out how a supposed Kitchener volunteer without any Regular, Territorial or Special Reserve experience ended up in a Regular battalion a mere 3 months after war was declared before transferring to a Service battalion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Hi, Based on medals I have owned: 1914 Stars to Regiments state the battalion in the following format: '1234 Cpl. H. Smith 2/A&SH' indicating 2nd Battalion Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders. The battalion information will be recorded on the MIC. Corps are a different matter, e.g. a 1914 Star to an ASC Recipient will only state 'T/1234 Pte. A.N. Other ASC'. However, the unit with which the individual served will more often than not be recorded on the MIC, i.e. a 14 Star to the ASC I used to own stated the number of the Divisional Ammunition Column he qualified with on the MIC despite no reference on the medal. 14 Stars to the RN state the Bn. the man served with (only the RND qualified), but to the RM only state 'RM Brigade'. However, the divisional prefix to a man's service number is a very good guide as to which Bn. he served with (e.g. a man with a CH. prefix indicating Chatham most likely served with Chatham Bn. RND). 15 Stars only state the regiment or corps an individual qualified for the medal with. I.e. if they landed ina theatre of war on the 10/12/15 with the ASC but transferred to the HLI four weeks later the medal will still say 'ASC'. The format is the same as the 14 star, but without the Bn. number. Occasionally the MIC will give a Bn. number, but this appears to be at the whim of the clerk filling out the card. Officer's 15 stars often (but not always) indicate the unit, but the pair to the officer will only give rank and name, except in the case of airman or sailors who will have the appropriate RN etc. after their name. BWM / VM should have the same details impressed as on the 14 / 15 stars, but without any Bn. number. If the recipient is only entitled to a pair the regiment shown will be that with which they first qualfied for the medal with, i.e. the date in which they first served in a theatre of war. However, if a man qualfied for his star with one branch of the services and then transferred to a different branch, his pair will have been issued by the last branch he served with. The star however will be issued with the first branch he served with. Hopefully the following examples might clarify this: i) Soldier A joins the ASC and qualified for a 1914 star. He later transfers to the Royal Marine Labour Corps, as did a significant number of ASC men. His 14 Star will read 'T/1234 Pte. E.X. Ample ASC' and his pair will read 'DEAL.12345 Pte. E.X. Ample RM' because the ASC is part of the army and the RMLC is part of the navy - different branches of the services therefore different naming. Make sense? OK maybe not, but I promise it's true ii) An Officer qualfies for a 15 star with the HLI. He then joins the RFC (later RAF). The star is issued by the army and so states Lt. A.N. Other-Example HLI, but the second branch fo the services issues the pair stating Lt. A.N. Other-Example RAF. iii) A sailor in the RN is discharged as medically unfit in 1915, having already qualfied for a 15 star (K.123456 J. Tar L/Sto RN). He re-enlists with the RNAS a year later. He then serves for six months before being KiA. The RNAS later became part of the RAF so the RAF issues the pair to 'F.123456 J. Tar AM/1 RNAS', whilst the RN issues the pair. The medal roll should for regiments state the Bn. the man qualified for his medal with. Do note that the medals show the highest rank an individual achieved in the war along with the regiment / corps. This means a man may have qualfied with the RFA but only achieved the rank of Sergeant after his transfer to the RE. Yet his BWM will still read 123456 Sgt. T. Atkins RA. Service numbers also changed during the war, and it is possible to find a star numbered differently from the pair. An example would be a four digit TF number on the star and a late 6 digit number on the pair. In all these cases the MIC should confirm both sets of details on the card. MICs also show those units an individual served with in a theatre of war, but not those units served with at home. E.g. a man who served with the ASC at home but was sent to F & F with the RGA will only have the RGA marked on his MIC. Of course there are always exceptions to the above rules (I can think of some myself) but these are good guidelines as far as I am aware. Apologies for the re-iteration of others posts, Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Do note that the medals show the highest rank an individual achieved in the war along with the regiment / corps. Alex: This statement is not completely correct. BWMs and Victory Medals show the highest rank an individual achieved in a theater of war, not in the war as a whole. For example, a Lieutenant serves with the Royal Noname Regiment in France. In 1917 he is wounded and returned to the UK for hospitalization. After recovering from his wounds he is posted with the Home Depot of the Royal Noname Regiment, appointed as Adjutant and promoted to Captain. He remains in that position until the end of the war. His BWM and Victory Medal would be named to him as a Lieutenant (the highest rank he held in a theater of war), not as a Captain (the highest rank he held during the war.) Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris_Baker Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Many MICs are marked with a symbol denoting the rank that would appear on the medal. This is the case where a man appears as, say, Pte and then Sjt. The symbol might appear against the Pte. The symbol like an X with a dot in each quadrant of the X. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Chris wrote: Many MICs are marked with a symbol denoting the rank that would appear on the medal. This is the case where a man appears as, say, Pte and then Sjt. The symbol might appear against the Pte. The symbol like an X with a dot in each quadrant of the X. Sometimes there are two "X" symbols one for the rank on the 1914 or 1914/1915 Star (usually using the symbol Chris described with a dot in each quadrant of the "X"), and the other (usually an "X" without the dots) which indicates the rank for the BWM and Victory Medal. Regards. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Dick, You are quite correct; I was aware of this but forgot to mention it in my post. Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ian Bowbrick Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 If the recipient is only entitled to a pair the regiment shown will be that with which they first qualfied for the medal with, i.e. the date in which they first served in a theatre of war. You will find for soldiers only entitled to the pair the date of entry is only shown for officers not ORs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaney70 Posted 11 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 11 January , 2004 hi all, as the originator of the post my GG details on his BWM and VM is RMLI which was the last unit he served in until he was demobbed, he served in BOULOGNE in the RMLC prior to transferring to the RMLI, why wouldnt his medal show RMLC? regards sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 12 January , 2004 Share Posted 12 January , 2004 RMLC medals are only distinguishable from other Deal based RM units by the service number. The format of the naming on RMLC BWM / VM medals is: Deal.8000-S Pte. A.N. Other RM This format is shared by the RM Medical Unit, RM Divisional Train, RM Ordnance Coy. etc. RMLC service numbers occur in the range DEAL.8000-S to DEAL.15599-S (note that does not include the mine-laying home service coys.) Thus no BWM / VM ever actually states RMLC. What was your grandfather's RMLC service number, and did it change when he joined the RMLI? At a guess, you could only join the RMLC on a short service enlistment. If he were an ASC regular who transferred to the RMLC then maybe he transferred to the RMLI to gain a long service enlistment? Technically this transfer *may* have counted as leaving the services and rejoining, in which case his medals are named to the last branch of the services he saw action with during the war - the RMLI. Perhaps you could post a short biography with some details? Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seaney70 Posted 12 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 12 January , 2004 hi, he served in 1914 with the Kings own, then the RE home service i reckon, then RMLC onto RMLI, ive enclosed his medal roll, which denotes RMLI ch2866 s, i know ch is chatham, whats S stand for, is he entitled to the Star?as theres the initial s is next to the VM and BWM regards sean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorts Posted 13 January , 2004 Share Posted 13 January , 2004 The service number CH.2866-S indicates a Chatham short service (hostilities only) enlistment. The vast majority of these men served with the Royal Naval Division. This number was issued between February and October 1918. V indicates a Victory Medal, B a British War Medal. You will notice the S appears in the 'disposed of' column, indicating that the medals were sent direct to the recipient, as opposed to him via a ship or base. He was not entitled to a star with the RMLI, but may well have earned it with another unit. Have you looked for his medal index card (marines don't have them but soldiers do)? His RM service record can be ordered at the PRO ref. ADM 159/148. This might state his previous occupation (e.g. civil occupation, RMLC or RE etc.) and will indicate where he served. RND service is often entered as HMS Victory for RM Brigade. His RMLC record will also be available. If you let me know the number then I will tell you the reference. Rgds, Alex. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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