Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 I have just started reading 'The Road to Verdun' by Ian Ousby as a precursor to the coming Pals Tour in April. There is a small passage in the book which suggests that Kitchener enlisted in the French Army during the Franco-Prussian war in 'A fit of youthful bravado' & that this made him unique amongst the British army commanders of the time as he had experienced warfare in continental Europe...... Firstly I presume this to be fact...........can anyone confirm it & secondly does anyone have any further information on Kitcheners Franco-Prussian war experience as the book reveals no more than I have already quoted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jonathan Saunders Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 This is interesting as Kitchener was an Engineer and I have always assumed he was not a "fighting" soldier as such. Can anyone elaborate on his active service career as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Dunlop Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Check out http://tntn.essortment.com/lordkitchenery_rlnf.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 9 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Check out http://tntn.essortment.com/lordkitchenery_rlnf.htm Robert.........Many thanks for the link...whilst it doesn't expand much on his actual service in the Franco-Prussian war it does at least confirm it actually happened & how it came about.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 Wasn't Hamilton an observer during the Franco-Prussian war? A fact that mightily impressed Hitler in the 1930s. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 9 January , 2004 Share Posted 9 January , 2004 I know this doesn't answer the question about Kitchener, but many "foreign" nationals served with the French Army during the Franco-German War, usually in a combattant capacity (not including Red Cross workers and other "civilians", etc). Apart from the Legion Etranger, several units within "standard" regiments were also made up of foreigners. One that springs to mind is the "Compagnie Irelandais", consisting of many Irishmen, and the subject of a book recently (re)published. I've also come across acounts of a US citizen unit - one account mentions a private soldier (an ex-Confederate) complaining about having to be under the command of a "Yankee" corporal, while his (French) officer tells him just to "shoot at the blue" (meaning the Prussian uniform, not the corporal!!!) Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Wasn't Hamilton an observer during the Franco-Prussian war? Andy...........I wouldn't have thought so as he only applied for his commission in 1870......the year the Franco-Prussian war was fought...although I believe he did spend time in Germany prior to joining the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2004 I know this doesn't answer the question about Kitchener, but many "foreign" nationals served with the French Army during the Franco-German War, usually in a combattant capacity (not including Red Cross workers and other "civilians", etc). Apart from the Legion Etranger, several units within "standard" regiments were also made up of foreigners. One that springs to mind is the "Compagnie Irelandais", consisting of many Irishmen, and the subject of a book recently (re)published. I've also come across acounts of a US citizen unit - one account mentions a private soldier (an ex-Confederate) complaining about having to be under the command of a "Yankee" corporal, while his (French) officer tells him just to "shoot at the blue" (meaning the Prussian uniform, not the corporal!!!) Dave. Dave.............That's very interesting......do you know whether these occurrences were in the main due to an ideological support for the French position or simply as appears in Kitcheners case of wanting adventure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 You're quite right, Will. I just checked my biography. He was actually in Germany during the war, staying in the Dresden household of a General Dammers. My memory was playing tricks! The book refers to Hitler being awe-struck speaking with a man, who had learnt his German amongst the heroes of 1871. Regards Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 do you know whether these occurrences were in the main due to an ideological support for the French position or simply as appears in Kitcheners case of wanting adventure To be honest, I'm not too sure. I can see the French-US and French-Irish links to involve some ideology of a kind (though I suspect that in the majority of US cases, it may be a matter of ex-soldiers being unable to re-adjust to civilian life after an especially bloody conflict as seems to follow most major wars), and the US did send "War Aid" in the form of weaponry, etc. to France during this war. The (occasional) reference to an Englishman in the French Army makes it look likely that they (the English) were just adventurers though. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 According to AJ Smithers, K had completed his time as a cadet before war erupted in 1870. As he was not yet a commissioned officer, he felt free to go and fight for France. Along with another ex-cadet, he joined Chanzy's army of the Loire at Laval. He makes no mention of K being in action. John Pollock in his recent biography of K, gives a more detailed treatment of this story. French tradition insists that K enlisted as a private in the 6Bn of the Gardes Mobile of the Cotes/du/ Nord, the local Reserve. Pollock is very sceptical of this, for as late as 26th January, K and Harry Dawson, presumably the ex-cadet, were still looking for a means to reach the front. By the time K and Dawson actually reached General Chanzy's army in Laval, the battle of Le mans had already ended several days before. Pollock is adamant that disproves claims that this battle was K's baptism of fire. Chanzy was planning a fresh offensive, but it was never mounted. Paris fell the next day and the French government asked for an armistice. At the invitation of a French officer, K then went up in a hot air balloon to see the distant German lines, caught pleurisy and nearly died. He took several months in England to recover. He also nearly had his commission revoked for unneutral activity. Unbelievably, he was formally rebuked in person by the C-inC the Duke of Cambridge at the Horse Guards. K was told that he was a disgrace to the British Army, a deserter, had behaved abominably etc. His dressing down was followed by the Duke murmuring 'I am bound to say, boy, that in your place I should have done the same thing'. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Will O'Brien Posted 10 January , 2004 Author Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Andy..................Many thanks for that, it's all really interesting stuff..............so the jury is out on whether Kitchener actually saw any action.............As I have never read Pollock's biography, would you say it was pro Kitchener, anti Kitchener or well balanced..........I only ask because there is always the tendency of the 'anti' lobby to put down or dilute the activities or achievements of the person in question. I am just trying to gauge whether Pollock’s views could be skewed in any way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AGWR Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 It is a very fair biography. No doubt, there are some people who would deem it pro-K of K. I think that most biographers (with Richard Aldington, perhaps the most notable exception) tend to have some degree of admiration for their subjects. It is, however, an excellent read that manages to avoid making too many judgments on the basis of today's attitudes Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CROONAERT Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 ..............so the jury is out on whether Kitchener actually saw any action............ Again, I can't comment on Kitchener's service in this war, but I'd like to add that the armistice mentioned after the fall of Paris didn't actually end the war. Republican France continued the fight ,after the fall of Imperial France, for a while longer. Dave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank_East Posted 10 January , 2004 Share Posted 10 January , 2004 Kitchener joined the Royal Engineers but gained early fame after he was transferred to the Egygtian Army at the age of 32 in 1882.Appointed as its commander,he reorganised its structure and oversaw the successful Khartoum military campaigns of 1896 to 1998.His efforts were recognised by his elevation to a Baron and the thanks of Parliament by a grant of £30,000. Disasters in the Boer War saw him called on and appointed as chief of staff to Lord Roberts in 1899 eventually succeeding Lord Roberts.Given credit for bringing the Boer War to a close in 1902 he again received the thanks of Parliament with a £50,000 grant and was made a Viscount and awarded the Order of Merit. From 1902 to 1909 he was the Commander in Chief of India and was appointed British Agent in Egypt in 1911. Kitchener was created an Earl in 1914 and at the outbreak of war Herbert Asquith appointed him as Secretary of State for War.Kitchener took steps to raise the strength of the British Army by the recruitment and formation of an additional 70 Divisions,an effort and achievement he will be long associated with. His long career was terminated when he was lost in the cruiser HMS Hampshire on 5 June 1916 when it struck a mine off Scapa Flow on a mission to Russia. His name lives on in Canada.Berlin, a port and city in Ontario founded and so named by German immigrants was renamed Kitchener in his honour after his death. Regards Frank East Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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