Sapper, then merchant marine

[William Bryce]

Hi,

Still having trouble identifying my Dad's service number in the RE's. After the war, he joined the merchant marine in 1923. Might he have listed his military unit, service number, discharge, etc. on any merchant marine documents, and if so, have these survived anywhere?

Thanks for any help.

Bill

[Guest Ian Bowbrick]

Not necessarily.

You need to visit Kew and ask about 'The Merchant Seaman's Pockets' 1918-1972. These are so called because all the documents pertaining to a seaman is held in a pocket like envelope like your Dr might still use. The contents do vary, but will commonly contain his ID card (which has his fingerprints on!!) and discharge paper. His photo will be on the ID card. You may be lucky and find what you are looking for?

These pockets are in original document form and have to be viewed in a secure private room, not the main reading room.

Hope this helps.

Ian

[William Bryce]

Hi Ian,

Thanks for this. It gives me another possibility to explore.

Bill

[Ian Underwood]

After the war, he joined the merchant marine in 1923. Might he have listed his military unit, service number, discharge, etc. on any merchant marine documents, and if so, have these survived anywhere?

The Southampton Archives also hold all the available Merchant Marine records and will search them for a fee of 5 pounds. Most WW1 era records were destroyed by some fool in 1969 however, from 1921 on they're almost certainly to be held there as well as the Pro. Below is the info they sent me.

Good luck, Ian.

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The Central Index Register of Seamen, 1913-1941

A Central Index of Merchant Seamen was introduced in October 1913, and continued in use until 1941. The index takes the form of a number of card indexes, containing in total over a million and quarter cards. There are 4 main series of index cards held here, two arranged alphabetically and two arranged by the number of the individual's discharge book.

1. CR1 Series

This is the main series of alphabetically arranged cards. It covers 1913-1941, although the majority of the pre-1921 cards of seamen no longer in service were weeded out and destroyed during the 1960s. CR1 cards often include the following information:

Front of a CR1 Card

- Surname & Christian names of individual

- Birth year and place

- Dis.A.No. (number of discharge book)

- Rating

- R.V.2 No. (Royal Naval Reserve Number)

- Certificate (if any): Grade & No. (details of any certificates held by individual)

- Health Insurance No.

- Unemployment Insurance No.

- Height, Colour Eyes, Hair, Complexion & Distinguishing marks

Back of a CR1 Card

- Name of ship from which discharged, when the card was created

- Official number of ship from which discharged, when the card was created

- Declaration that seafarer is not in possession of an unfilled Continuous Certificate of Discharge

- Signature of seafarer

2. CR2 Series

The series of CR2 cards run alongside the CR1 series, covering the same period of 1913-1941, but as with the CR1s, were also weeded out in the 1960s. The CR2s are arranged by the individual’s discharge number, rather than by name, however the series of CR1 cards generally provides an index to this less accessible series.

Details given on the CR2 cards are:

Front of a CR2 Card

- Name of Seaman

- Birth: Year & Place

- Dis.A.No. (number of discharge book)

- Rank or rating

- Name and Official No. of ship

- Date of Engagement (usually in form of a stamp of Mercantile Marine Office)

Back of a CR2 Card

- List of ships (by name or by official number)

- Dates of Engagement of individual on the vessel

3. CR10 Series

This alphabetical series covers the years 1918-1921, partly filling the gap caused by the destruction of the earlier cards from the main two series of CR1s and CR2s. The CR10s were created for a very particular purpose: to issue merchant seamen with identity cards during World War I. For this reason, women are not usually included in the index (although one card for a woman has been found). Neither does this part of the index cover seamen engaged on home trade. Details you would expect to see on CR10 cards are:

Front of a CR10 Card

- No. of Identity Certificate (seaman’s identity certificate number)

- Surname & Christian Name

- Rating

- R.N.R. Number (Royal Naval Reserve number)

- No. & Grade of B/T Certificate (details of any Board of Trade certificates held by the individual)

- Date & place of birth

- Nationality of seaman and of father

- Height, Colour Hair, Eyes, Tattoo marks

- Dis.A.No. (number of discharge book)

- NH Insurance No. (health insurance number)

- Name and address of next of kin

Back of the CR10 card

- Photograph of individual

- list of ships (usually by official number) with date of engagement for individual

4. The Combined Series

This series was created (for reasons unknown) by pulling together cards from the other three series. Combinations of CR1s, CR2s and CR10s for an individual are included, all arranged by the individual’s discharge number. Cards are often included which fall outside the 1918-1941 time-period; some have entries as late as the 1950s. Since this series has no alphabetical index, it is less accessible to search than the others.

Questions about the Central Index Register

- How do I find a ship’s name from its official number?

The Registrar of Seamen and Shipping, in Cardiff, hold apportionment registers, from which it is possible to find a ship’s name from its official number. Another option is to consult the registers of changes of masters at the PRO (BT 336), which are also arranged numerically by ship’s number

- Where do I go for records of seafarers serving after 1941?

Service records for mariners who served after 1941 have recently been transferred from the Registry of Seamen and Shipping in Cardiff to the Public Record Office. If an individual’s service at sea started before 1941, but continued after this date, then often they do not appear in the 1918-1941 register.

- How do I find a seafarer before 1918?

Since there is no surviving Central Index before this date, then you are reliant on largely unindexed Crew Lists of vessels for this.

- How can I search the Central Index Register?

You are very welcome to come and search the Central Index Register free of charge at Southampton Archives. We are open to the public Tuesday to Friday, between 9.30 and 4.30, and no appointments are needed. It is worth avoiding arriving between 12.30 and 1.30, since documents cannot be produced from the strong-rooms during this period. We also operate a monthly late evening, during which the office is open until 9.00 pm. This is by appointment, so please contact the office for more details.

If you cannot come in person to search the index, we offer a research service. A search of the Central Index costs £5.00 per surname (with a maximum of 3 individuals of that surname included in this price). For more details, contact:

Southampton Archives Services

Civic Centre

Southampton

SO14 7LY

Tel. (023) 8083 2251

Email: city.archives@southampton.gov.uk

[William Bryce]

Hello Ian,

Many thanks for this lot of information. I will get on to the Southampton Archives tomorrow and see what they have. I note they don't list anything about prior military service, but I'm ever hopeful!

Thanks again, and all the best.

Bill