German Assault Troops of the First World War

[bob lembke]

NB Bob -

- After the collapse of the Russian offensive on this part of the front, a Demonstrationsangriff in the night of 03-04/07 conducted by elements of RIR 104 and IR 361 with the support of 10 Trupps des Sturmbataillons 8 and 6 Flammenwerfer in 4 Kolonnen. By 06:00 the old German positions at Milowka were retaken, with a failed Russian counter-attack beaten off at 06:30. Isolated 'nests' of resistance cut off behind German lines were methodically wiped out in the usual manner. The men of the Sturmbataillon and the flamethrower teams were returned to higher command and left at 06:00 on 05/07 (pp 97-98).

Bob - anything to contribute on the Sturmbtn. 8 / flame operations in Galicia? I presume this one was in part a Totenkopfpioniere operation?

ARL

Andi;

I only have the sketchiest info., from the point of view of the FW men, not the storm battalion. The FW teams were from 4. Kompagnie, Garde=Reserve=Pionier=Regiment (Flammenwerfer) , and four died, quite a heavy loss.

Bob

[bob lembke]

Andi;

Yes, I got the download. Thanks a lot. I am a social clod and did not thank you before. (I am a bit distracted, as my bank has just been sold out under my feet; they have been financing a current business venture.) I printed off the information on the Garde=Pionier=Ersatz=Bataillon for study; it was the parent unit of my father's volunteer company at Gallipoli.

I will respond to your very interesting material bit by bit today. Do you have a detailed citation for the history of RIR 104? I will see if my wife the book sleuth can find it in the US.

Bob Lembke

[bierast]

Yes, I got the download. Thanks a lot. I am a social clod and did not thank you before. (I am a bit distracted, as my bank has just been sold out under my feet; they have been financing a current business venture.) I printed off the information on the Garde=Pionier=Ersatz=Bataillon for study; it was the parent unit of my father's volunteer company at Gallipoli.

Glad it helped - I'll remove it from my server now.

I will respond to your very interesting material bit by bit today. Do you have a detailed citation for the history of RIR 104? I will see if my wife the book sleuth can find it in the US.

Thanks, I will look forward to further responses... on the RIR 104 history I'm afraid all I have for you to go on is what it says on my IWM photocopy request form here - Reserve-Infanterie-Regiment 104 by Major a.D. Braun. I have photocopies only of pages 95-100 (18/06/ - 24/7/ 1917) which I will be scanning and backing up later anyway, and will therefore be able to pass on by email.

ARL

[bob lembke]

I am reading a document from Allied sources, but supposedly a captured document from the general supposedly commanding the 7th Army, von Schubert, at the supposed date of this document, September 13, 1916. This document was either translated from the German into English, or from the German into French into English. (I do not have access to the document in the original German.) What does the following mean?

“The returns of the officers to be assigned individually from the assault detachments to the Rohr battalion of assault (footnote: - an instruction battalion, organized near Longuyon.) must be sent on the first day of each month to the general staff of the army (general of engineers).”

My curiosity focuses on the term "returns", which I have seen but do not understand, for sure. Assuming that "returns" means paperwork reports on the activity of a given officer on detached duty, I am guessing that this sentence says that a report on the activity of each officer who has been sent from his own assault detachment to train with Storm Battalion Rohr should be sent to the General of Pioniere on the general staff of either his army (7th Army) or to the OHL, the HQ of the entire Army. (I am guessing that the sentence means to the General Staff of the 7th Army.)

Any specific information on the meaning of "returns"?

Bob Lembke

[Chris Boonzaier]

I think comparing casualties as a measure of success is a waste of time.

Sturm trupps and flamethrowers attacked in carefully planned missions, then they did a runner and left the newly captured positions to the PBI who then suffered the wrath of enemy artillery and counter attacks... and that was a pretty bad position to be in. Usually the initial suprise attack was rather bloodless for the attacker.... THEN things went bad.

Bob, I have a totally different view of the French Regt histories than you do. All are online, all are handwritten, most are multi volume and it would take years to plow through them. They are often of the same sort German ones. What are these thin dramatic volumes you are reading? Are you reading the real war diaries?

Here is an Early 1917 French raid...

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/180901.html

As mentioned before, everyone copied from everyone, the Germans did not develop the whole thing in a vacuum, starting at Zero. They took Andre Laffargue as a "text book" starting point, added a lot and improved, and the British and French probably saw that and changed as they saw fit, then the Germans jumped in again and did a change or two...

[wiking85]

I think comparing casualties as a measure of success is a waste of time.

Sturm trupps and flamethrowers attacked in carefully planned missions, then they did a runner and left the newly captured positions to the PBI who then suffered the wrath of enemy artillery and counter attacks... and that was a pretty bad position to be in. Usually the initial suprise attack was rather bloodless for the attacker.... THEN things went bad.

Bob, I have a totally different view of the French Regt histories than you do. All are online, all are handwritten, most are multi volume and it would take years to plow through them. They are often of the same sort German ones. What are these thin dramatic volumes you are reading? Are you reading the real war diaries?

Here is an Early 1917 French raid...

http://www.kaiserscross.com/40029/180901.html

As mentioned before, everyone copied from everyone, the Germans did not develop the whole thing in a vacuum, starting at Zero. They took Andre Laffargue as a "text book" starting point, added a lot and improved, and the British and French probably saw that and changed as they saw fit, then the Germans jumped in again and did a change or two...

Sorry, but no. The Germans did not use Laffargue's text as a basis for anything. One could say the captured french text on zonal defense was used, but the Germans independently developed their assault tactics. Andre's text was captured nearly 6-7 months after the founding of Rohr's demonstration unit, and Rohr never encountered the text. Read up on it in Gudmundsson's book Stormtrooper tactics which details the history of myth. Each side had their own ideas, but when it came to squad tactics, the Germans under Ludendorff had the best system set up to institutionalize excellence and had an unprecedented feed back system that went to the top. I have never encountered anything remotely like it even reading Paddy Griffin's book on British tactics (though under Ivor Maxse they developed quite well). The British and French excelled at the regimental level and above, as their doctrines focused on firepower domination and producing casualties in an attrition warfare. The Germans by the end never accepted the attrition model and focused on defeating moral, rather than producing casualties in the enemy (Falkenhayn's tenure notwithstanding). The German ideas of decisive battle would not reach full expression until the creation of a machine able to exploit break-ins. Once that happened, the WW2 successes could be directly connected with the model of Germany's 1918 tactical and operational doctrine.

[Chris Boonzaier]

Sorry, but no. The Germans did not use Laffargue's text as a basis for anything. One could say the captured french text on zonal defense was used, but the Germans independently developed their assault tactics. Andre's text was captured nearly 6-7 months after the founding of Rohr's demonstration unit, and Rohr never encountered the text. Read up on it in Gudmundsson's book Stormtrooper tactics which details the history of myth.

Bruce is Wrong.

His book was published quite some time ago and he based his opinion on Laffargue not on what he did find, but what he did not, which can be dangerous.

What makes you think Rohr never encountered the text? It was distributed to men being trained by his Battalion.

best

Chris

[wiking85]

I was going by Bruce. What makes makes you so sure that Laffargue's text was the inspiration for these tactics?

[Chris Boonzaier]

Bruce;s work is great,

but he did not have the benefit of the WWW, ie. he still had to do all his reading and research a fact the honest old fashioned way. Nowdays you post something on a forum and a couple of hundred people may be able to confirm it for you in a minute or so.

Bruce had to work with the idea that in all his reading he could find no mention of Laffargue's text being an influence. If we say there are roughly about 1000 regimental histories and a book or two more about the war, it is sure that he was working with all that a human can possibly read in a certain space of time.

So, although he probably read way more than I did, I happened to read Regt B history, while he was reading regt A, just a question of chance.

"Nothing beats German efficiency. A year ago the French Hauptmann Laffargue used a new offensive tactic in the May offensive at Arras that worked rather well. It had just been our (2nd Bavarian Jägers) good luck that it was not us he practiced it on. We Germans had taken the tactic and added German spirit to French Form and we know held translations of the booklet that the Captain had written........ and were preparing to try out the tactics that had been added to the theory"

Rough translation of part of an article by an officer of the 2nd Bavarian Jägers (Alpenkorps) being trained for their fighting in Verdun in May 1916 by SB Rohr.

I dont think SB tactics were copied from Laffargue, I think they were a patchwork, taking ideas from wherever a good one was seen. Much credit to Rohr, but I dont think he awoke with a cry of "Eureka!" ... and suddenly the tactics were born.

Best

Chrius