Sherwood Foresters Stretcher Bearer

[raich]

My relation Josiah Grice 13514 was in the 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters. (as an aside my mum tells me he was a stretcher bearer and that on the eve of him going back to France he told his sister to fetch the bobbies to take him away as he couldn't make himself go back (she fetched the bobbies and he subsequently died in November 1917)). His service records could not be found at TNA, although I did manage to get a few details from the regimental museum.

Having just started researching the relatives who were in the Great War, I have learned that divisions were made up of infantry, artillery, engineers and field ambulances.

My question is therefore did infantry regiments also have their own stretcher bearers in addition to the Field Ambulances, or is it more likely that he was transferred to a non-combatitve role after his trauma after being wounded three times and at the somme and ypres???

Also if someone could clear up why he would enlist in Mansfield when he would probably have been recruited in his village in North West Leicestershire, which is 30-40 miles away I'd be very grateful.

Thanks in advance,

Raich

[Muerrisch]

An infantry battalion had its own stretcher bearers. Originally, these were supposed to be bandsmen, but later, SBs were appointed from anywhere within the battalion. There were usually 16 to a battalion but these were augmented to 32 at times: a stretcher could need 4 men in difficult going.

They wore a white armlet with red S.B.

[sotonmate]

Raich

The Long Long Trail has an article about Field Ambulances and their set-up:

http://www.1914-1918.net/whatfieldamb.htm

from that you will see that they had more than plenty to do already ! They often used Battalion-nominated stretcher bearers,at times of need,viz.as part of the planning before attacks men would be detailed as stretcher bearers. I am not sure I would expect a soldier who is not fit for the front line being put into a stretcher-bearer role !

Best wishes

Sotonmate

[jmoha]

As I understand it, yes they would. Each Battalion would have its own Stretcher Bearers. Bandsmen were often (and still are, I think) employed in this role.

They were then supported by the Field Ambulance Bearers.

I'm sure an expert will be along in a moment to clarify the exact scalings etc.

As for enlistment, many factors influenced men. Some joined with workmates, others were rejected in one office to then be accepted elsewhere or it could be that the Lincs Regiments were "full" up and he opted for another local regiment. Of course, depending on when he joined, it may have been he was transferred where the army wanted him evern after joining the local Regiment in the UK.

Edit: Experts beat me to the punch

[raich]

Thanks for the replies guys. I wonder why he told his family he was a stretcher bearer then, perhaps he mentioned had been recently prior to coming home injured or on leave and this was what the family remembered. I guess he wasn't keen to talk about his fighting in the infantry perhaps...

Was it common for stretcher bearers to be shot at or was there respect for them when they went after the bodies?

Raich

[john gregory]

Thanks for the replies guys. I wonder why he told his family he was a stretcher bearer then, perhaps he mentioned had been recently prior to coming home injured or on leave and this was what the family remembered. I guess he wasn't keen to talk about his fighting in the infantry perhaps...

Was it common for stretcher bearers to be shot at or was there respect for them when they went after the bodies?

Raich

Here is a nice photo of a Sherwood Foresters medic. John

[stevem49]

If you go to my website www.ypressalient.co.uk - Norman Butcher - They are his letters to and from the family when he was a stretcher bearer in 1st Bn Sherwood Foresters. His mate was Fred Limb, also on the site. Norman was killed in March 1917.

stevem

[Muerrisch]

Here is a nice photo of a Sherwood Foresters medic. John

Now that IS strange!

Here we have a Forester from the cap badge, but wearing a Geneva Cross which was a RAMC badge.

I am baffled.

Perhaps he was TF? and perhaps TF with some medical training wore the badge?

Pass!

[stevem49]

Thanks for the replies guys. I wonder why he told his family he was a stretcher bearer then, perhaps he mentioned had been recently prior to coming home injured or on leave and this was what the family remembered. I guess he wasn't keen to talk about his fighting in the infantry perhaps...

Was it common for stretcher bearers to be shot at or was there respect for them when they went after the bodies?

Raich

Raich

Why have you decided he was not a stretcher bearer?

His wounds may have been slight previously or he could have been wounded as a stretcher bearer. Shells did not pick between non-combatant and combatant. It could be argued that SB' where the bravest men out there. Norman Butcher won an MM for his SB duties before being killed.

Like anything - some times respect was shown for stretcher bearers but at others they would be fair game like the rest.

Stevem

[mikebriggs]

I agree with everything said so far

All I can add is that the SBs were also in the line of fire and often had to put themsleves a great risk to bring the wounded from the front line trenches to the field ambulances. This was often during daylight whne it was very dangerous.

I have a transcript from the diary of a 1/6th Battn Notts & Derby SB. Often putting himself at risk and was gassed in May 1915. Later returned to France to win MM.

cheers

Mike

[raich]

Raich

Why have you decided he was not a stretcher bearer?

His wounds may have been slight previously or he could have been wounded as a stretcher bearer. Shells did not pick between non-combatant and combatant. It could be argued that SB' where the bravest men out there. Norman Butcher won an MM for his SB duties before being killed.

Like anything - some times respect was shown for stretcher bearers but at others they would be fair game like the rest.

Stevem

I was thinking through what SotonMate said ie. infantrymen became stretcher bearers in time of need. I envisaged a situation where he would be doing this part time and this was what his family picked up upon. Other postings subsequenly imply that this could be a full-time occupation also.

Thanks for everyone's help and contributions.

Raich

[Ron Clifton]

,,, but wearing a Geneva Cross which was a RAMC badge.

Not exclusively.The Geneva Cross gave protection under the Geneva Convention to all personnel involved in the care and evacuation of wounded.

Ron

[Cliff. Hobson]

If you go to my website www.ypressalient.co.uk - Norman Butcher - They are his letters to and from the family when he was a stretcher bearer in 1st Bn Sherwood Foresters. His mate was Fred Limb, also on the site. Norman was killed in March 1917.

stevem

Fred Limb whom I knew personally was also awarded the Military Medal, evidently took over a machine gun to counter the enemy.

Pte. Fred Limb. M.M. No 19891 1st Battalion Sherwood Foresters. Son of Mrs. Limb Old Mill Belph Moor, Whitwell. Fred Limb was awarded the Military Medal (London Gazette 21 Oct. 1918)

His citation says “For Gallantry and Devotion to duty when he did excellent work in ferociously

resisting an enemy attack on the positions on the ridge north of Bouleuse between 29th and

31st May 1918. Bouleuse is N. E. of Ville-en-Tardenois & 14 kilometres S. E. of Reims. France.

Regards Cliff.

[Bob Doneley]

Stetcher bearers were appointed - 2-4 per rifle company - from within the Battalion. Their role was to give very brief first aid and then get the wounded out of the front line and back to the Regimental Aid Post (RAP). Although initially bandsmen were utilised as stretcher bearers, as conditions in France deteriorated it was realised that stretcher-bearing required great courage, strength and stamina - so the best men were selected for the role. Some were bandsmen, others were riflemen.

At the RAP was the Regimental Medical Officer and his staff. These were often RAMC, attached to a Battalion (hence the photos of a soldier with a line regiment hat badge and a RAMC sleeve insignia). They would further stabilise the patient and get him ready for transport. Moving the patient from the RAP to the Casualty Clearing Stations and further back was the responsibility of the Field Ambulances (RAMC).

A good description of how the system of medical evacuation in the BEF worked can be found in the Australian WW1 Medical History, on-line at www.awm.gov.au

Remember that Pte Ernest Albert Corey of the 54th Battalion AIF was awarded the MM four times for his work as a stretcher bearer - and he was never a member of the AAMC.

Bob

Bob

[BJanman]

Now that IS strange!

Here we have a Forester from the cap badge, but wearing a Geneva Cross which was a RAMC badge.

I am baffled.

Perhaps he was TF? and perhaps TF with some medical training wore the badge?

Pass!

Interesting photo, I've seen this before. I have a picture of the Medical Officer's Staff, 3/4 Batt. Queen's R.W.S. Regiment. The RMO has two Cpls sitting next to him, the one on his left is wearing the RAMC Cap badge and Geneva Cross and the one to his right is wearing the Royal West Surrey Regiment cap badge and Geneva Cross. There are three other RAMC ptes, all wearing the Geneva Cross and Regimental Stretcher Bearers wearing the SB.

I know that Regimental Stretcher Bearers do not wear the Red Cross Brassard because they are not part of a medical team so cannot claim protection of the Geneva Convention. I wondered if he may be the Medical Officer's Orderly as they are documented as being the rank of Cpl / L-Cpl or could he be the Medical Officer's Batman??? I haven't worked this out yet.

Barbara

[regtcollector]

Hi all, i maybe wrong but didn,t some of the VADs wear regimental badges with medical trade badges ? Grumpy,s point that stretcher bearers were often bandsmen is correct. A freind of mine once asked me why i was so interested in an item he was selling as "he was only a bandsman" it saddened me somewhat, as bandsmen were lost in their thousands acting as stretcher bearers, runners etc. Cheers Ian.

[Ron Clifton]

I know that Regimental Stretcher Bearers do not wear the Red Cross Brassard because they are not part of a medical team so cannot claim protection of the Geneva Convention. I wondered if he may be the Medical Officer's Orderly as they are documented as being the rank of Cpl / L-Cpl or could he be the Medical Officer's Batman??? I haven't worked this out yet.

Barbara

I stand corrected as regards SBs wearing the Geneva Cross.

The medical-associated personnel in an infantry battalion in 1914 were as follows:

RAMC personnel:

One officer, one corporal and four privates. The Other Ranks were primarily for "water duties" ie ensuring a clean supply of drinking water.

Battalion personnel:

One lance-corporal and one private as the MOs orderlies. The private also drove the MO's medical cart.

One batman for the medical officer.

Sixteen stretcher bearers - originally from the band.

The combination of regimental cap badge, sinle stripe and Geneva Cross therefore seems to indicate the senior of the MO's orderlies.

Ron

[Muerrisch]

Lets get this straight: the badge I referred to is the circular one with the red cross. This was the badge worn on both arms by personnel of the RAMC up to and including Warrant Officer. It did not of itself afford protection under the Geneva Convention: such protection was afforded by the white brassard bearing the red cross worn on the left arm and stamped and certified on the rear. Personnel wearing this were allowed to bear side arms primarily for the purpose of dealing with savage foes, but lost all protection if they engaged in combat.

Stretcher bearers could be of all arms, wore the 'red SB on white' armlet when engaged on those duties, and were regarded as combatant.

There is, however, confusion in the use of the circular RAMC badge, and my notes [and those of Denis Edwards] uncovered not a few instances of non-RAMC personnel wearing the circular badge. I have never unearthed official sanction for the practice.

All the above from Clothing Regs and the Manual of Military Law.

[BJanman]

Barbara

The medical-associated personnel in an infantry battalion in 1914 were as follows:

RAMC personnel:

One officer, one corporal and four privates. The Other Ranks were primarily for "water duties" ie ensuring a clean supply of drinking water.

Battalion personnel:

One lance-corporal and one private as the MOs orderlies. The private also drove the MO's medical cart.

One batman for the medical officer.

Sixteen stretcher bearers - originally from the band.

The combination of regimental cap badge, sinle stripe and Geneva Cross therefore seems to indicate the senior of the MO's orderlies.

Ron

Thanks Ron, I really appreciate your response.

I tend to agree with you that it indicates the senior of the MO's Orderlies, I need to find evidence of that. The picture I have does not state that the Cpl wearing the Royal West Surrey Regiment cap badge and the circular badge with the red cross is RAMC but it does state who the other RAMC personnel are. It would be interesting to know what singles him out.

Barbara