Great War Novels

[Guest JoyLFC]

For many years I never touched a Great War novel thinking I should stick to Non Fiction and get the "knowledge". Then during a holiday I picked up a novel, with a first world war theme, and started to read. I thought it was great! Now I always have one on the go around the house. I know there is a lot of dross out there, and books which can be picked apart for their lack of factual content, (Some have even won prizes) but there are also some "really good reads". Even if these books aren't correct in every detail does that always have to be a problem? (Perhaps thats just the girlie in me)

Some I have read and enjoyed, and cant remember questioning the facts are:

The Wars by Timothy Findley

In Pale Battalions by Robert Goddard

Now God be thanked, In the Green of the Spring and Heart of War, a trilogy by John Masters

Flanders by Patricia Anthony

And my all time favourite Liams Story by Ann Victoria Roberts

[Terry]

To which I would add the John Harris novel "Covenant With Death". This follows the creation of a volunteer battalion through to its destruction on 1 July,1916. Great reading.

[armourersergeant]

Joy,

I have read In Pale Battalions by Goddard and did not rate it among his best, though none of the others are based around the era. Also 'Closed Circle' has links to WW1 and is brilliant perhaps his best IMO.

I have often recommended RF Delderfield 'To Serve Them All My Days' It is about a man who returns shell shocked from the war and takes up a position in a private school in the out back. It is about his rehabilitiation and progresses from 1918 to 1940. If you have not read it do so.

Also JB Priestley 'Lost Empires' is a good read.

regards

Arm.

[salientpoints]

I have just finished 'Private Peaceful' by Michael Morpurgo.

Nothing new or groundbreaking but a lovely work of fiction to introduce the horrors of war to young adults.

Surely recommened at some schools already!

Ryan

[Will O'Brien]

Now God be thanked, In the Green of the Spring and Heart of War, a trilogy by John Masters

Read this trilogy as a youth............Quite enjoyed it then, but in retrospect I think the Great War elements were very stereotypical..........lots of under age joining up, the heroic fighter pilot character, the SAD case bravely going to his execution with a wry smile on his face, the gay sailor, the coward who turns it around & becomes the best Sergeant in the Battalion..............I could go on & on....................

[Michelle Young]

Will

I picked up the John Masters trilogy last year after reading it over 20 years ago, I think I quite enjoyed it then. Last year, I didn't get past the first few pages.........As you say, stuffed full of cliches

Michelle

[paul guthrie]

Arm To Serve Them All My Days was made into a superb TV series I suppose by BBC years ago, shown here on PBS. Bought the book and loved it, gave it to a friend who's a Lt Col in Special Forces, wants to be a headmaster next, he loved it.

[armourersergeant]

Paul,

I am finally finding a few 'To Serve Them All My Days' fans on this forum. I loved the series in fact i saw it before i read the book. Unfortunately i have never seen it again. That has got to be approaching twenty years. My beloved does not allow mw cable or satalite tv so i have never seen a repeat.

I nearly cried when he learns of his wifes death ( you'll never know the truth) and have had a soft spot for Belinda Lang the actress ever since.

regards

Arm.

[paul guthrie]

This was on a series called Masterpiece Theatre, commentator was the wonderful Alistair Cooke. God they had many great series from BBC and other UK, Upstairs Downstairs, best thing I ever saw on TV, lots of wonderful multi part Dickens, Poldark, Danger UXB, Brideshead Revisited, O Claudius, Bishop of Barchester, not quite the right name, Donald Sutherland in a Trollope novel, the guy who played the odious SLope was SO GOOD! Many more, wonderful.

[Jock Bruce]

Will

I picked up the John Masters trilogy last year after reading it over 20 years ago, I think I quite enjoyed it then. Last year, I didn't get past the first few pages.........As you say, stuffed full of cliches

Michelle

I'm the same - found it didn't stand rereading. His 'Man of War' which covers the inter-war and early WW2 years is better, possibly because it was an era closer to his own. Still cliche-heavy though.

Jock Bruce

[Terry_Reeves]

Like Arm, I too am a fan of R F Delderfield and "To Serve Them All My Days" .

With regard to Paul Guthrie's post, Alan Rickman played the wonderfully sinister Obadiah Slope in "The Barchester Chronicles".

As for "Danger UXB" also mentioned in Pauls's post, I had the great pleasure of meeting and talking with, on several occassions, Ken Revis, on whose story the programme was based. Ken was a kind and modest man who overcame severe facial disfigurement and total blindness after trying to defuse an anti-tank mine booby trap on Brighton pier. This after successfully disposing of many enemy aircraft bombs. Ken went on to become a successful solicitor and could often be seen on parade with the St Dunstan's contingent at Whitehall on November 11th, with his wife Jo as his guide.

Terry Reeves

[armourersergeant]

Just looked inside the cover of the paperback copy i have of 'To Serve Them All my Days' and saw this cast list.

Some young stars now famous there including Nick Lyndhurst of 'Only fools and horses', Phillip Franks, was he in Darling Buds?, Mathew Waterhouse was in 'DR Who' i think. The steal of the show for me will always be Alan MacNaughton as Howarth the wise old teacher with the fag in mouth routine down to a tee.

Sorry to digress but nostalga is a funny thing.

Arm.

[Dragon]

The question, to me, is whether Great War novels should have a place on my shelves. And the answer is emphatically yes.

A well-written novel is a well-written novel, regardless of whether it is based in an historical period, or aimed at child readers, or based on a scientific fantasy, or any other speciality taste. It should illuminate how characters develop and learn from a set of circumstances and it may provide insight into how social or political movements affect the group of people who lived with them.

I suggest that good fiction which refers mainly or in part to the Great War is probably the nearest the majority of the population will come to knowing anything about the Great War. I would include poetry in this generalisation. Most people would be bored rigid by the sort of texts which many Forum users find intensely interesting and a lot of history teaching cannot engage young people with the very personal aspects of war in the way that fiction can. Nor should it; subjectivity can be untrustworthy.

This is a point Cynthia made in the thread about Birdsong and Regeneration: that her students would simply not have engaged with her subject matter had it been delivered as a set of facts or evidence, whereas they were very interested in the story of Robert Stark, a real man with real relationships, real fears, real hopes and a real family who grieved for him, and setting his story into her novel reached out to them where pedagogy couldn’t.

Most readers are capable of suspending reality and becoming immersed in fiction to the point at which they might be interested enough to pursue the subject matter and find out more. Reading Alice in Wonderland never got me terribly worked up about the fate of rabbits or the consequences of swallowing little bottles of medicine, but as a student, I came back to the novel as a rich work of political satire and discovered the other layers in the next; similarly One Hundred and One Dalmatians (the version on paper, not the one with real dogs): enjoyable as a simple story with tension and a wicked female character, but equally interesting as a take on socialist politics. It would have been useless my parents explaining to me who Barbara Castle was, but now I can deconstruct it with my greater awareness of the world. That is, if I want to. The novels are enjoyable and compelling with or without the deeper factual knowledge.

So I would defend any reading of fiction by serious writers, whether it happens to have a war context or not. I’ve enjoyed many books which I think have given me some insight into aspects of war, by authors such as Frederick Forsyth, Neville Shute, J L Carr, C S Lewis, Chaucer, Ovid, Rebecca West, Katharine Mansfield and even Shakespeare... and that’s just casting my eye at random around my bookshelves visible from my PC. Provided that they are well-structured and compelling narratives, skilfully written in gorgeous, rich language with feeling and passion, psychologically realistic with strong momentum, they have a place on my shelves.

Gwyn

[Eddie Bosano-Andrews]

What about the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was at the Somme and actually started creating the characters of Middle Earth in quiet moments in the trenches.

The Dead Marshes section of the book which was included in the Two Towers film was drawn directly from Tolkiens experience in the trenches.

Also the relationship between Sam and Frodo was Tolkien said directly based on the relationship of a batman to his officer.

[salientpoints]

Eddie Bosano-Andrews

  What about the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was at the Somme and actually started creating the characters of Middle Earth in quiet moments in the trenches.

Then you need to read "Tolkien and the Great War by John Garth" detail below nicked from Harper Collins' website -

"To be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than in 1939... by 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead."

So J.R.R. Tolkien responded to critics who saw The Lord of the Rings as a reaction to the Second World War. Tolkien and the Great War tells for the first time the full story of how he embarked on the creation of Middle-earth in his youth as the world around him was plunged into catastrophe. This biography reveals the horror and heroism that he experienced as a signals officer in the Battle of the Somme and introduces the circle of friends who spurred his mythology into life. It shows how, after two of these brilliant young men were killed, Tolkien pursued the dream they had all shared by launching his epic of good and evil.

This is the first substantially new biography of Tolkien since 1977, meticulously researched and distilled from his personal wartime papers and a multitude of other sources.

John Garth argues that the foundation of tragic experience in the First World War is the key to Middle-earth's enduring power. Tolkien used his mythic imagination not to escape from reality but to reflect and transform the cataclysm of his generation. While his contemporaries surrendered to disillusionment, he kept enchantment alive, reshaping an entire literary tradition into a form that resonates to this day.

[mcderms]

Pat Barkers 'Regeneration' trilogy is a must-read. Trulky great writing and possibly the best novels ever written about WW1 IMHO. 'Another World' is my personal favourite of hers though - about a man dying of cancer but still haunted by WW1 seventy years later. Very moving.

Go out and buy all four - you won't regret it!

PS - I personally thought that 'Covenant With Death' was rubbish. A well researched but totally formulaic novella - you're better off reading anything factual about the Pals.

[AndyHollinger]

Eddie Bosano-Andrews

  What about the Lord of the Rings. Tolkien was at the Somme and actually started creating the characters of Middle Earth in quiet moments in the trenches.

Then you need to read "Tolkien and the Great War by John Garth" detail below nicked from Harper Collins' website -

"To be caught in youth by 1914 was no less hideous an experience than in 1939... by 1918 all but one of my close friends were dead."

So J.R.R. Tolkien responded to critics who saw The Lord of the Rings as a reaction to the Second World War. Tolkien and the Great War tells for the first time the full story of how he embarked on the creation of Middle-earth in his youth as the world around him was plunged into catastrophe. This biography reveals the horror and heroism that he experienced as a signals officer in the Battle of the Somme and introduces the circle of friends who spurred his mythology into life. It shows how, after two of these brilliant young men were killed, Tolkien pursued the dream they had all shared by launching his epic of good and evil.

This is the first substantially new biography of Tolkien since 1977, meticulously researched and distilled from his personal wartime papers and a multitude of other sources.

John Garth argues that the foundation of tragic experience in the First World War is the key to Middle-earth's enduring power. Tolkien used his mythic imagination not to escape from reality but to reflect and transform the cataclysm of his generation. While his contemporaries surrendered to disillusionment, he kept enchantment alive, reshaping an entire literary tradition into a form that resonates to this day.

It would be easy to make the mistake about LOR and WWI and WWII ... the second conflict is more easily put into a Good Vrs Evil context. Is it the Germans themselves who are seen as evil, or is it the War itself?

[salientpoints]

It would be easy to make the mistake about LOR and WWI and WWII ... the second conflict is more easily put into a Good Vrs Evil context. Is it the Germans themselves who are seen as evil, or is it the War itself?

I guess we will all just have to buy the book and read it

[Eddie Bosano-Andrews]

I think it's war itself that's seen as evil and destructive but the end product can be bonds of great friendship and sacrifice for each other.

It's actually really difficult to sum up this book in a few lines and is probably better pursued on a Tolkien forum.

Thanks for the tip on the book Salient, I'll keep an eye out for it.

[AndyHollinger]

Before we talk about LOR or any Tolkein book, the dividing line between those who've "read" it and those who've looked at it ... is ...

Did you read all the dwarve's songs, or skip over them ...

[Eddie Bosano-Andrews]

Each time I read LOTR and all the others I always read the songs even though I can't stand them and think that they detract from the seriousness of the books for some reason I can't skip over them, for some erason I'm afraid that I'll miss something in the plot if I don't !.

[AndyHollinger]

Each time I read LOTR and all the others I always read the songs even though I can't stand them and think that they detract from the seriousness of the books for some reason I can't skip over them, for some erason I'm afraid that I'll miss something in the plot if I don't !.

Your'e official ... it's the mark of one who exists on middle earth ... Can't stand them myself ... but am forced ... even though the image in my mind is the dwarves coming back from the jewel mine in Disney's Snow White!!!!

[Guest JoyLFC]

Mcderms I cant agree with you on the Pat Barker Trilogy. I thought regeneration and the ghost road were readable but, as a friend of mine once said they were just a hook to hang a dirty book on. If anyone can explain the eye in the door to me I would be thankful cos I thought it was ***p.

[Dragon]

Birdsong and the Regeneration Trilogy are extensively discussed in this thread:

http://www.1914-1918.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=8103

a friend of mine once said they were just a hook to hang a dirty book on. If anyone can explain the eye in the door to me I would be thankful cos I thought it was ***p.

Joy, in my view, your friend's opinion is superficial. If you are serious about wishing for an explanation of The Eye In The Door, I will happily give one. In doing so, I would hope to convince you of its considerable merits as a serious work of literature.

Gwyn

[Dragon]

Before this thread gets completely buried in Hobbits, my contribution is The Return of the Soldier, by the gifted and perspicacious Rebecca West.

Its focus is the return of a shell-shocked soldier, Chris, to the three women who love him: his lovely wife, his cousin and his first love. He has lost his memory and can only recall his first love as she was fifteen years previously. His wife has been erased from his mind and his cousin is recalled only as a child.

The choice the women face is whether to leave Chris as he is or to attempt to rehabilitate his memory and nurture a recovery.

It’s a serious attempt to explore what we know was a real and devastating trauma, particularly haunting as Rebecca West wrote it during the Great War. The sexuality of the three women who love him is a vehicle for encouraging us to look for the truth about the relationships and beyond the apparent perfection of the life before Chris was mentally damaged.

Gwyn