Max Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 No doubt the Ethiopians have lodged a totally unjustified request for the stuff to be returned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Hi. Very interesting. Could the person who the CWGC have as Captain Clive Holland, R.F.A., d. 9 May 1915, actually be Cyril Holland? http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=570123 Afterall, it would be a bit uncanny that there were 3 C. Hollands, all of the R.F.A., all dying on exactly the same day. Though not impossible, I suppose. Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 It's late at night and it's been a long day! Could someone post a precis of what is the exact query here and I'll see if I can trace what is happening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 26 January , 2008 Share Posted 26 January , 2008 Hi. Very interesting. Could the person who the CWGC have as Captain Clive Holland, R.F.A., d. 9 May 1915, actually be Cyril Holland? http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=570123 Afterall, it would be a bit uncanny that there were 3 C. Hollands, all of the R.F.A., all dying on exactly the same day. Though not impossible, I suppose. Martin Hello Martin I could have sworn that just a couple of years ago the entry now showing as Clive Holland was just plain C.Holland....either way the additional info attached to C.T.T. Holland's entry on the CWGC database is wrong. According to ODGW there was no officer called Clive Holland killed during the war. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Yes, Andy. I think it's pretty clear now that Charles Trevenen Holland had no connection with Oscar Wilde. I have a feeling that Clive is Cyril. I could find no mention of a Captain Clive Holland in The Times. As well as the death notices you found, I also noticed this: The Times, Saturday, 08 May 1937, p.1 In Memoriam On Active Service HOLLAND.- In memory of CAPTAIN CYRIL HOLLAND, R.F.A., killed in action May 9, 1915, aged 30, elder son of the late Oscar and Constance Wilde; a staunch and generous kinsman and friend. Martin p.s. The same notice appeared the following year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 Could someone post a precis of what is the exact query here and I'll see if I can trace what is happening. Terry, PM sent Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 I could have sworn that just a couple of years ago the entry now showing as Clive Holland was just plain C.Holland....either way the additional info attached to C.T.T. Holland's entry on the CWGC database is wrong. Andy. It would be worth contacting the CWGC to query this. You would expect/hope that they retain records of supporting documentation as well as a revision history. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 27 January , 2008 Share Posted 27 January , 2008 It would be worth contacting the CWGC to query this. You would expect/hope that they retain records of supporting documentation as well as a revision history. Hello Martin I have contacted Terry Denham who is going to do this on our/my behalf. Many thanks Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 The problem has been sorted as follows.... Name: HOLLAND, CHARLES T. TREVENEN Initials: C T T Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Lieutenant Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery Unit Text: 33rd Bde. Date of Death: 09/05/1915 Additional information: Son of the late Col. Trevenen Holland, CB, and Mrs. Trevenen Holland, of Ephraim House, Tunbridge Wells. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: II. C. 12. Cemetery: RUE-DU-BOIS MILITARY CEMETERY, FLEURBAIX Name: HOLLAND, CYRIL Initials: C Nationality: United Kingdom Rank: Captain Regiment/Service: Royal Field Artillery Date of Death: 09/05/1915 Additional information: Eldest son of playwright and poet Oscar Wilde, and Constance Lloyd Wilde, later Holland. Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead Grave/Memorial Reference: I. A. 1. Cemetery: ST. VAAST POST MILITARY CEMETERY, RICHEBOURG-L'AVOUE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Good work Terry. Thanks very much indeed. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Good news, and congratulations to all involved. Is it known whether this was a long-standing error in the CWGC records or the result of a more recent addition of a 'celebrity' attribution? Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 The error dated from April 2007. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Thanks, Terry. All's well that ends well. Hopefully we won't have someone throw the cat amongst the pigeons in the future by posting a photo of the headstone at St. Vaast Post Military Cemetery and it saying something like "Clive Holland, only son of Brigadier Methuselah Jeremiah Holland.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyHollinger Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Just a note here ... can you imagine doing this before the Inet? Wonders of the world, gentlement, wonders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiegeGunner Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 The error dated from April 2007. A guarded response, Terry. Was this indeed a case of historically interesting information being added to an entry on the initiative of CWGC? If so, the coincidence of two Captains C Holland RFA being killed on the same day is so remarkable that I hope this unfortunate mistake will not deter the judicious addition of such information in appropriate cases in the future. Mick Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Denham Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Mick You are trying to make something of nothing. I simply answered your question. It was a clerical error caused by the wrong record being selected due to the same surname, same initial, same date of death and same regiment. Nothing more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
linden Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Isn't one of Ocar Wilde's grandsons alive ? Is it Merlin Holland ? See Wikepedia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Mackenzie Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Very interested to read this thread. In another thread I have been asking for a map of the Aubers Ridge area covered by 1st Bn Sherwood Foresters on 9th May. RP Stoneham, an old boy of my former school, was in the SF's and was killed on that unit. The war diary of the time includes the reference:- "One shell alone, which landed in the trench where the C.O. and the Adjutant were, killed an R.A. observation officer [name unknown], 2nd Lieut. STONEHAM of this battalion, and wounded 2nd Lts. C. T. WATSON, J. H. STACKHOUSE, and five men." I had been trying to see if I could find out who the RA officer was but Stoneham is buried in Le Trou Aid Post and the only RFA man in that cemetery is a Sjt Geeson (also killed on 9 May). There are a couple of 2/Lt's ( JM Mayne and FR Eagar) in the RFA killed on 9 May and buried in nearby Rue Petillon cemetery but I thought the most likely was Lieut CTT Holland in Rue du Bois) which is also not far away. Does anyone have any info on how CTT Holland was killed or on the 33 Brigade for the day in question which might cover this? Thanks Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pierre Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 I'll also take the photo of the grave at St Vaast. Pierre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jansanderson Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 Followed this thread through and did a bit of searching on the census. Nothing absolutely conclusive but Cyril and Vyvyan's mother had a brother Otis Holland Lloyd in 1861 census, unfortunately both parents are away from home so couldn't follow up on them and wasn't able to make any head way in later censuses. Therefore unable to find a parents marriage but I'm wondering if perhaps Constance's mother's maiden name was Holland and she or the boys chose to adopt this "family" name for their future after all the scandal. In 1891 census both boys are registered under name Wilde by 1901 they are both using Holland. Just a thought Jan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 1 February , 2008 Share Posted 1 February , 2008 I'll also take the photo of the grave at St Vaast. Hello Pierre Thank you very much for providing the photographic evidence that set this query moving. Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rflory Posted 2 February , 2008 Share Posted 2 February , 2008 Captain Cyril Holland, RFA Born in 5 June 1885, the son of Oscar Wilde Educated at St. Peter's College, Radley from Lent 1899 to 1903 (was a Prefect, played on the college VIII in 1902 and Boxing in 1902-03. Gentleman Cadet at the Royal Military College, Woolwich Commissioned as a 2nd Lieut, RFA on 20 December 1905 Promoted to Lieutenant on 20 December 1908 Served in India from September 1911 until 1914; was serving with No. 9 Ammunition Column, RFA at Secunderabad, India in August 1914. Promoted to Captain, 30 October 1914 Killed by a sniper near Neuville-St.Vaast on 9 May 1915 Sources: Radley Register, 1847-1933; Radley Register, 1847-1947; List of Officers of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, 1862-1914; various ARmy Lists. Dick Flory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max Posted 2 February , 2008 Share Posted 2 February , 2008 Killed by a sniper near Neuville-St.Vaast on 9 May 1915 Sources: Radley Register, 1847-1933; Radley Register, 1847-1947; List of Officers of the Royal Regiment of Artillery, 1862-1914; various ARmy Lists. Dick Thanks for the service details, but I think that they have the place of death wrong, Neuville St Vaast is 20 miles away from where he was buried at Richebourg St Vaast, after being killed near Neuve Chapelle (you can see how a mix up could occur) Andy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
melliget Posted 2 February , 2008 Share Posted 2 February , 2008 ..I'm wondering if perhaps Constance's mother's maiden name was Holland and she or the boys chose to adopt this "family" name for their future after all the scandal. Jan. The Holland name does seem to have come from Constance's mother's line. According to "The Victorians: An Age in Retrospect", by John Gardiner: ..in 1895 Cyril and Vyvyan Wilde had their surname changed to 'Holland', a name with the reassuring obscurity of dating back to the eleventh century on their mother's side. regards, Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry_Reeves Posted 2 February , 2008 Share Posted 2 February , 2008 Below is the affidavit which was part of the proceedings to allow legal title to the name. As you will see, Holland was their grandmothers maiden name. Affidavit – 16 April 1907. "I, Adrian Charles Frances Hope of 34 Tite Street, Chelsea in the County of Middlesex do solemnly declare, that by an order of the High Court of Justice dated the 1st day of March 1897 and made by the honourable Mr Justice Kekewick in the matter of Cyril Wilde and Vyvyan Oscar Beresford Wilde, infants (1897 W 218) the late Constance Mary Wilde the mother of the said Infants and I the said Adrian Charles Frances Hope were appointed (inter alia) to act in the nature of guardians to the said infants. Owing to legal proceedings with which her husband the late Oscar Fingal O’ Flaherty Wills Wilde was concerned the said Constance Constance Mary Wilde assumed her mothers name of Holland and up to the date of her death on 7th April 1898 was called and known by the name of Constance Mary Holland , the children who under the said order were in her custody also being called and known by that name." Other notes: Born: 5 June 1885, 16 Tite St, London. Mother: Constance Wilde, formerly Lloyd. Father: Oscar Wilde Registered: 8 7.1885 Educated: Radley College Jan 1899 – April 1903 Onslow College April 1903 to present time (Aug 03) Address 1903: 5 Cottesmore Gardens, Kensington, London Applied for entry to RMC 25 August 1903. Kia 13 Brigade Ammunition Column 9.5.15 near Neuve Chapelle whilst supervising a working party. Buried St Vaast Post Mil Cemetery. All notes from the NA, including Cyril's personal file and unit war diary. Some brief notes on Vyvyan Holland: Born: 3.11.1886 Educated: Stoneyhurst and Trinity College, Oxford. Stoneyhurst College Cadet Corps 1903-04 Profession: Barrister Commissioned : October 1914? Demobilised: 27.7.19 Demob address: Bath Club, 34 Dover St, London W1 Wife: Violet May Beresford Commissioned 1914 114 Battery, XXV Bde RFA Diagnosed PUO (Trench Fever) Nov 7th 1916 Embarked England 14the November 1916 – Rouen Disembarked Southampton 17 November , 1916 Leave: 20.11.16 – 17.1.17 UK address this period: 15 Pembroke Rd, Portsmouth. Medical Board: Milburn Hospital Southsea and also 5 Southern General Hospital Southampton 24.11.18 attached 3 Corps from I Div Ammunition Column 02.11.18 to be Temp. Capt Intelligence duties 24.11.18 UK Leave 18.11.18 – 17.12.18 Sick leave 6.1.19 – Returned to duty. TR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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