Goodbye to all that

[1st east yorks]

Hello,

Ive just started reading Robert Graves Goodbye to all that.I have heard conflicting stories about the credability of the book and Robert Graves himself,i have been told its a must read book but to take it with a pinch of salt.I was told by someone who knew a veteran (middlesex battalion) that served along side the Royal Welsh Fusiliers hated Graves so much because he had untruthully slagged off his battalion that he tried to assault him during one of his talks in public after the war.What is the truth?

Thanks Anthony.

[truthergw]

Robert Graves was a well respected poet and novelist after the war. His semi-autobiographical book is written by an established author and this is what makes it a classic. He was criticised by several soldiers who felt he had been unfair. Captain Dunn in particular was very scathing in his criticism of him. As a book and a story, I think it deserves to be rated very highly. It is not a book which could be used to confirm a particular military or historical question. " Graves says that, ' they went over the top at dawn' ", would not be considered a clincher in an argument. Read it, and then you will be entitled to hold forth when it next comes up for discussion.

[Muerrisch]

Dunn's mss comments in his personal copy of GTAT are scathing where they exist, but many pages are undecorated with graffiti.

Where one would expect a Doctor to write something more, well, medical, he wrote 'B A L L S !'.

Sassoon was even more unhappy about the book.

Yes, Graves's book cannot be cited as evidence, except of evidence that he needed to make a few bob, had a rattling good yarn to tell, and needed to get things off his chest.

Having said that, he was an effective officer and was always a staunch patriot, volunteering again for WW II. He lost his eldest son to the Japs in that war.

I should add that, without RG's support, encouragement and some editorial input, neither of Frank Richards's masterpieces would have seen the light.

[1st east yorks]

Thanks Trutherqw & Grumpy,

Looking forward to reading it.It seems a shame if Robert Graves needed to be a bit liberal or distort the truth in order to promote himself at the expense of others.I will read it with an open mind and take from it what i can.

Thans Anthony.

[Paul Hederer]

Thanks Trutherqw & Grumpy,

Looking forward to reading it.It seems a shame if Robert Graves needed to be a bit liberal or distort the truth in order to promote himself at the expense of others.I will read it with an open mind and take from it what i can.

Thans Anthony.

"It seems a shame if Robert Graves needed to be a bit liberal or distort the truth in order to promote himself at the expense of others..."

Anthony,

I think if true, Graves he would be in good company. If you look at the authors who stretched or even downright lied about their wartime service--Hemingway, Remarque, Lawrence (T.E.), and Meinerzhagen come to mind immediately, Graves seems pretty golden in comparison.

I agree with Tom on Graves, but I would reverse the order a bit in that I would say that his book is a classic and helped maintain his reputation as an established author...

I've read the "I, Claudius," series as well, and think he's a hell of a good writer.

Paul

[Aaron Pegram]

Anthony,

May I suggest you get your hands on a copy of Paul Fussell's The Great War and Modern Memory and read pp.203-220. Fussell goes to to great lengths to point out where Graves doesn't let the truth get in the way of a good story.

Cheers,

Aaron.

[KF Kelly]

Anthony,

I agree with Paul (post 5) and the others above. When Graves wrote the book he, like so many others, was a deeply traumatised man but I think he still had a sense of humour and was also I think deliberately provoking a response. Read the book, the description of the Loos battle is very evocative. Make up your own mind. When I finished reading the book many years ago my first thought was that I would l love to meet and talk to this man.

Kevin

[truthergw]

Sometimes I think that we need to open our screens a little wider. This is the man who wrote " I, Claudius ", among other books. He also wrote some first class poetry. How could a book of his not be worth reading?

[Aaron Pegram]

I wouldn't go that far Tom, Goodbye to all that is definitely worth reading. Graves' is probably one of the best post-war memoirs out there and deserves to be read: its a ripping yarn and he has some poignant descriptions of battle. More importantly, he fought on the Somme, and he left us a legacy of its hells.

But the book is not without its flaws. The dominance of the well-to-do-soldier-poets such as Graves and Sassoon did not account for the entire British Army's experience of war, but their popularity attributed to many of the myths surrounding it. Goodbye was originally written in the 1920s when the theme of disillusionment was in vogue and sold well - Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front Sassoon's trilogy and Graves' Goodbye came out within a matter of years. Because of its myriad of embellishments to suit the audience, the bias of the author, the climate, fashion, and drive for writing in the 1920s, post-war memoirs such as Goodbye are not accurate sources. Interestingly enough, Graves heavily edited Goodbyein the 1950s and set himself up in Majorca on the proceeds.

Graves wrote an essay entitled 'P.S. to Goodbye to all that published two years after the book was first released, and illustrates this quite nicely. An extract reads:

I had more or less deliberately mixed in all the ingredients that I know are mixed into popular books. For instance, while I was writing, I reminded myself that people like reading about food and drink, so I searched my memory for the meals that have had significance in my life and put them down. And they like reading about murders, so I was careful not to leave out any of the six or seven that I could tell about. Gohsts, of course. There must, in every book of this sort, be at least one ghost story with a possible explanation, and one without any explanation, except that it was a ghost. I put in three or four ghosts that I remembered.

And kings...People also like reading about other people's mothers...And they like hearing about T. E. Lawrence, because he is supposed to be a mystery man...And of course the Prince of Wales...Other subjects of interest that could not be neglected were school episodes, love affairs (regular and irregular), wounds, weddings, religious doubts, methods of bringing up children, severe illnesses, suicides. But the best bet of all is battles, and I had been in two quite good ones - the first conveniently enough a failure, though set off by extreme heroism, the second a success, though a little clouded by irresolution.

So it was easy to write a book that would interest everybody...And it was already roughly organizes in my mind in the form of a number of short stories, which is the way that people find it easiest to be interested in the things that interest them. They are what they call 'situations'.

Graves is clearly writing for an audience: what memoir writer isn't? But is it accurate enough to use as a historical source? No. My favorite story is of the two machine guns 'chatting' to each other. Humorous, but complete B.S.

Read it and enjoy it. But make sure you have a salt shaker within arms reach

A.

[Muerrisch]

I agree with most of the above except:

Graves heavily edited Goodbyein the 1950s and set himself up in Majorca on the proceeds.

In fact he set himself up in Deya, Majorca before the war, using Frank Richards's generous gift of part proceeds from the latter's OSND. He returned to the house after the war.

FR wanted to give RG half the royalties, but RG said 1/3 would be more appropriate.

They corresponded fondly until FR death.

An edited [by me] series of articles containing the letters FR to RG will be published in ST! next year.

[truthergw]

My message was that military accuracy should not be the sole criterion when deciding whether to read a book and possibly not even the main one. It may come as a shock to some of our Pals, not us of course, that there are books out there which never mention the Great War at all. They are fairly well regarded in some quarters. Are the memoirs of any of the leading figures of the Great War to be left unread because we can point to exaggeration and indeed downright falsehood? I think not. Anyone who wishes to be thought at all well read in the Great War must number GTAT among his reading list. He doesn't have to believe all of it nor even like it but he does have to read it. Some of the French and German books are worth a peek as well. The Kaiser's Memoirs are very rewarding.

[centurion]

Look at it the same way as his splendid book Count Belisarius the novel about the great Byzantine general who restored (briefly) much of the old Roman Empire. If GTAT had also been set fourteen hundred years in the past no one would be nit picking the details - its a NOVEL not a history book but gives a very good general flavour. At least Graves was honest about it being a novel.

[Muerrisch]

Truthergw: I got your message indeed and said I agreed with it except the matter of RG going to Deya: you wouldn't want me to leave a small inaccuracy hanging for posterity against your good name.

I should add that I have indeed read most of RG's books and poetry, and have RP Graves's splendid 3-part biography.

I suspect we both regard him highly.

[Jim Clay]

Grumps

In the spirit of not leaving inaccuracies uncorrected for posterity (as it were), I do believe you were, in fact, replying to Apegram - as was Tom. I do believe also that you and Tom have similar views on the value of Graves' works.

Jim

[centurion]

In the spirit of not leaving inaccuracies uncorrected for posterity (as it were),

Wasn't it Marx (G not K) who said something like "I never bother about posterity; what's posterity ever done for me?"

[Jim Clay]

Probably

[Muerrisch]

Grumps

In the spirit of not leaving inaccuracies uncorrected for posterity (as it were), I do believe you were, in fact, replying to Apegram - as was Tom. I do believe also that you and Tom have similar views on the value of Graves' works.

Jim

dammit sir, you are right!

If Truthergw should happen to read this, humble public grovelling has commenced.

[truthergw]

With all those people rushing to explain misunderstandings and apologise for slip ups contingent upon said misunderstandings, it's getting blooming hard to get an argument going here!

[Jim Clay]

No it's blooming not!

[Muerrisch]

no way, jose [can't find acute accent nonsense!]

how about no way Caractacus then?

[1st east yorks]

Thanks to you all,

Glad to say ive set an old debate in motion,all your comments are very interesting and most of you appear well versed in literature.There is certainly some valid points both for and against and i believe this argument could go on for ever(thats not a bad thing).There is no doubt about RGs talent as an author and poet and his book is a personal account of the war from someone who was there.I agree with the comment about traumatisation and of course the fog of war must play its part.

Thanks again for your replies especially for the time spent typing long quotes,

Anthony.

[Steven Broomfield]

An edited [by me] series of articles containing the letters FR to RG will be published in ST! next year.

Look forward to that.

Could I add, purely off-topic, that the Grumpmeister has a very interesting series of vignettes in Stand To! currently, on RWF characters? Worth reading.

And for Centurion - Marx (G) was always a better judge of life than Marx (K). Fulle marks to you for the quote

[1st east yorks]

Hello, Aaron thanks for your time in typing the long quote i will as suggested try and read Paul Fussells book,thanks.Kevin ive just finished Nick Lloyds 'Loos 1915' so i look forward to reading RGs account of the Loos battle,thanks.Grumpy,look forward to your article in Stand To, thanks.Thanks again to all who contributed to this post.

Anthony.

[Muerrisch]

Look forward to that.

Could I add, purely off-topic, that the Grumpmeister has a very interesting series of vignettes in Stand To! currently, on RWF characters? Worth reading.

And for Centurion - Marx (G) was always a better judge of life than Marx (K). Fulle marks to you for the quote

Thanks for the plug!

Two more to come in next two editions:

'Gerald' [HG Weston] FR's drinking partner in India, who became a CSM in RWK in the Great War. An amazing story.

'The Surrey Man' from GTAT.

[1st east yorks]

Grumpy,

Enjoying your articles in Stand To.

Anthony.