Digging the Trenches - The Archeology of The Western Front

[Moston]

Bought 2 days ago and haven't been able to put it down.

I have total admiration and respect for the No Mans Land team who have certainly 'raised the bar' for WW1 archeology. The meticulous care and attention to detail they demonstrate are a credit to them as professionals and in so doing offer homage to those whose footsteps they uncover.

The book is very well written indeed and is easy to follow for complete amateurs & experts alike.

I applaud the opportunities taken throughout the book to challenge the way we often leap to conclusions about what we see.

I'm so grateful for the opportunity of having seen NML in action in Thiepval Wood, and to have had a few beers with them at Avrils on the odd occasion.

The final part of the book concentrates on the stories of four men they 'discovered'. Reading just this part just makes you realise the benefit of doing a 'proper job' on trench excavations....it also makes you grind your teeth with despair when you think of all those who may have been identified in the past but for a more professional approach in their unearthing.

This book is an absolute MUST for any that enjoyed the Finding The Fallen series...and for those who have ever stayed with Avril Williams !!!!

Simon (T-shirt man) Moston.

[Andrew P]

Thanks for the review Simon. Just seen this book for sale recently and had been debating about whether to get it.

Cheers

Andrew

[bmac]

And the team is still hard at it. Last weekend I met up with some of them and went over to their dig near Regina Trench. There was another going on near Adanac. At Adanac they found the complete remains of a German with equipment, rifle, helmet, etc., so a good chance of a recognition. At Regina they had found two Germans and the legs and boots of, probably a Canadian. It was a sobering sight to watch them delicately scrape away the mud from the man's bones. The rest of the poor soul may have been underneath (there was a stretcher near by) but, possibly, it was all that remained. One can but hope that sufficient material can be found to identify this man.

The dig was littered with grenades, rifles, water bottles, etc., and a Canadian film crew were there recording everything and giving a feel for the nature of the fighting. One fascinating bit of filming was done showing the field of fire the Germans would have had as the Canadians appeared above the skyline from the direction of Courcelette before going down the slope towards Regina. The digging team acted as the attackers and their sudden appearance on the horizon before their completely exposed 300 metre walk towards the trench and the position of the German guns was a dramatic demonstration of the appalling difficulties the infantry had in attacking these cunningly located German trenches.

An instructive and emotional visit.

[Seadog]

This topic has been raised under the heading of Books which may seem inappropriate for my following comments, but it has been raised so can I ask politely and without stirring up a hornets nest of reaction, just what NML are doing digging up the remains of soldiers. Do I understand that this is for the sole purpose of making a TV documentary as would seem to be alluded to in the last post. If this is the case what can these actions possibly achieve and if the main purpose behind this was the making of a commercial programme, how does that square with the excavation of the mortal remains of the fallen. I would be very much obliged for opinions on this matter.

Norman

[trenchtrotter]

Seadog,

You will stir that nest. I suggest a new thread elsewhere as it will detract from the theme of the thread. We all have our views and the main thing is to respect them

Regards

TT

[Seadog]

Thanks for the comments TT, I will however leave this topic here as the previous posts have indeed raised the present activities of NML. I have like many others viewed the TV series depicting these people and I feel very uncomfortable with what was portrayed. If in fact some of this forms the basis for the book I can see no problem with a discussion here. And yes we all have our views, which I respect but we are dealing with the dead here and in my opinion this should be debated.

Norman

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

I am currently waiting for my copy of the book and hope it arrives shortly. Being part of this group all I can say is that the goal is not to dig up human remains for commercial efforts.

The goals have been to examine the remains of the fortifications left behind when the war was over, to see how they are constructed, do they match accepted norms, etc. In the event human remains are discovered then they are treated with utmost respect regardless of national origin.

At the very least they will receive a burial along with their former comrades. The best scenario is that they are identified and given a named burial with their comrades.

I was and am an amateur when it comes to archaeology, my strong point is the historical side of the war, to provide information on the locations, regiments, etc. that once occupied and fought in the areas being worked on.

When I saw how much effort and especially time was needed to properly recover and remove human remains no matter how much of a person was found, from a single hand to multiple bodies, it was amazing.

I had the impression several times that it was far easier to dig at a location and not find bodies than to find even one or two. In fact there were many digs where all that was found was equipment, munitions, trenches, etc. so it is not a sure thing as some might think and therefore evidently not the goal of the group.

From the response by one of the families of the fallen that was discovered near Serre several years ago I am of the opinion that if human remains are found and they are given the respect and care they deserve and they can be identified the families have the closure they missed out on so many years back.

It can bring families together in some cases, create a new bond and interest in family history. I would rather see NML find and care for these remains than many of the ebay sellers with very questionable items for sale, all 'battlefield dug'.

Do not judge their work by television shows where the editors are out to make a show and often do not accurately really the feelings of the people working on these finds, the hard work and tedious digging, scraping and speculation on the smallest finds. If a show was actually done on the dig as many of the recent reality shows I feel it would give the true feeling of being on a dig and all that it concerns.

Sorry for the length of the reply, this evidently concerns me greatly and I am sure there will be additional threads or responses on this subject.

All I can say is that knowing the two men who wrote this book, something of their personalities, their interests, their dedication to archaeology of the Great War and even their sense of humor that it will be something you would want in your library.

Ralph

[Seadog]

I of course have no wish to alienate of cause friction amongst any members here on the Forum. The following are my views on the matter.

In essence my opinion with regard to excavations on the Western Front is this.

If when due to commercial activity (house building, road construction etc) archaeology is uncovered in relation to the Great War, it is then right and proper that a professional excavation is undertaken to remove such archaeology including human remains prior to the development of such sites. Plus that if such archaeology is naturally exposed during normal day to day activities such as ploughing etc, the same would apply.

Where I draw the line is when excavations are made purely on the basis of a commercial undertaking such as the making of TV documentaries and books etc which in my opinion will in no way add to the general publics understanding of the conflict and by the act of excavation may lead to human remains being discovered which would normally be undisturbed. This I believe breaks all the rules of human decency and shows great disrespect to the fallen.

Norman

[jonprice]

First we need to clarify that YAP films documentaries are not NML projects. NML personnel are involved because Dave Kenyon and Andrew Robertshaw who contract with YAP draw on available expertise and that includes NML. The book produced by Dave and Andy is not an NML publication as everything is published by individuals, and so any statement they make is theirs alone. You can find other statements and views by looking at the publications list on the NML website.

I am one of the archaeologists involved in NML. My field is the archaeology of conflict, the effect of conflict on archaeology, and in particular the treatment of human remains. I will be talking about this issue at a public day seminar (with other archaeologists) at Oxford University on saturday 28th February next year.

I have two close relatives amongst the missing on the Western Front, one of them at Messines, and last year (and agin probably this year) I took part in archaeological excavation at Messines.

Finding bodies is a feature of archaeology. Usually they are anonymous and impossible to connect with present day people. In some cases tribal affiliation is used to make that link. In the case of the Great War we can often directly link recovered human remains with their relatives who are than able to see them properly buried. This is a valuable service to these living people.

Many of us (modern, only sentimentally connected with the war) visit monuments like the Menin Gate which sanitises our experience of this awefull time. Sassoon (decorated serving soldier with clear views on right and wrong) said this on seeing the dedication of the new Menin Gate:

Here was the world’s worst wound. And here with pride

‘Their name liveth for ever,’ the Gateway claims.

Was ever an immolation so belied

As these intolerably nameless names?

Well might the Dead who struggled in the slime

Rise and deride this sepulchre of crime.

One of the roles of archaeologists is to help those nameless dead rise up.

Jon Price

Archaeologist, NML

[bmac]

What is the cut-off date when the digging up/disturbing the remains of the dead becomes acceptable? Or should it never be acceptable in which case let us return the contents of many museums. In any case, I believe the purpose of the film was not to find bodies but to follow the activities of the Canadians along the Western Front through analysis of the ground over which they were to attack and the defences so attacked. Finding these bodies was a sad and pognant by-product of their work.

To be honest, though, if someone were to find the body of my great uncle and give his remains a proper burial I would be only too pleased irrespective of how it were done.

[Aurel Sercu]

Where I draw the line is when excavations are made purely on the basis of a commercial undertaking such as the making of TV documentaries and books etc which in my opinion will in no way add to the general publics understanding of the conflict and by the act of excavation may lead to human remains being discovered which would normally be undisturbed. This I believe breaks all the rules of human decency and shows great disrespect to the fallen.

Norman

Norman,

Until 4 years ago I was involved in excavations in Boezinge (near Ypres) as an amateur. In that period remains of 200 men were found. With 2 of them a TV team was present (BBC). All these remains later were reburied with their comrades.

It never felt as if I was doing something indecent or disrespectful.

Somehow I (naively ?) even thought we were adding to the general public's understanding of the conflict.

Aurel

[benghazi]

Simon

Saw this book in Waterstones, was tempted now I am going to treat myself to it.

Spent 20 years digging Roman sites in and around Chichester at least Roman artefacts don't go bang.

Roger.

[Ralph J. Whitehead]

First we need to clarify that YAP films documentaries are not NML projects. NML personnel are involved because Dave Kenyon and Andrew Robertshaw who contract with YAP draw on available expertise and that includes NML. The book produced by Dave and Andy is not an NML publication as everything is published by individuals, and so any statement they make is theirs alone. You can find other statements and views by looking at the publications list on the NML website.

Jon Price

Archaeologist, NML

Thank you clarifying this important point Jon, it is something I generally know but often omit when discussing these issues.

Ralph

[Alastair Fraser]

Gentlemen

I don't post here often but I would like to add a few points to Ralph Whitehead's comments on Andy Robertshaw and Dave Kenyon' book. I know that the issue of human remains provokes strong and heartfelt emotions. I am founder member of No-mans-land so have been digging with them for over 10 years now; because of work committments and my own book underway I have not been able so far to take any part in this series. In reponse to previous criticism several of my colleagues have clearly stated that we do not go looking for human remains at the behest of TV companies or anybody else. I would like to emphasise this. We have had a site running for about 4 years now in Thiepval Wood at which I believe we have discovered one fragment of human rib so one can dig the Western Front without turning up bodies. It is a fascinating site made no better or worse by this fact. Actually discovering human remains slows things down very considerably as our first and only priority is then to excavate and remove them in a professional manner. We care very deeply about these men and the professional archaeologists find it difficult to maintain the detachment that it is necessary and much easier to hold on to when excavating Romans or Saxons, a point that Andy and Dave discuss. I know everybody is entitled to their opinion but I do find it slightly disheartening to think that some people believe that we deliberately go looking for bodies. The work that we have done to identify some of these men is the best argument for our viewpoint.

I think that all my colleagues would admit that the relationship between archaeology and television is not always an entirely happy one. Television provides the money to excavate the sites in the first place - we could not possibly tackle the number of sites we have investigated in any other way. Producers and directors have their own worries about costs, deadlines and the necessity to get a programme out of the footage and we have to respect that but you can be assured that we do not compromise. If we believe it is not ethical or professional we don't do it. I have known Dave Kenyon and Andy Robertshaw for many years and I know their views on this. Finally, and not because they are friends of mine, I would say buy this book if you want to find out about archaeology on the Western Front.

Regards

Alastair Fraser

[Moston]

I started this thread, so I will finish !

Having read the postings I have my views and some of you obviously have very different ones....life goes on.

BUT, my recommendation of this book remains concrete.

I even suggest that those who may not align themselves with the work of NML should read the book as they will be reassured and educated in much more detail than any TV programme can ever do.

[Mark Abbott]

Andy Robertshaw & David Kenyon's book is superb. I was very kindly presented with a copy by 9KLR and much to my delight, it has been signed by the authors. Many thanks.

The book is both well written and well presented. Both authors and the publisher are to be congratulated on an excellent read.

The question of uncovering bodies is I accept very sensitive. From my own point of view if my great uncles body was recovered I would welcome the chance of him having a "proper" burial. Keep up the wonderful work please.

I would, without hesitation recommend the book.

Mark

[KIRKY]

Anyone got an update on the recovery of the bodies?

Were they found by field walkers or by other means?

Will we be able to see the film in UK?

Tony

[Ken Lees]

Tony,

If you are referring to the Regina Trench project, the team were looking for Regina Trench itself and came across the bodies during the excavation. I was fortunate to be able to spend some time on site watching the process of recovery of the bodies and asking questions.

The team were all excellent ambassadors for their work and took the time to stop work and explain what they were doing and why. I have great admiration for what they do and the way they do it.

Many of the questions raised on this thread are discussed at length in the book so I would strongly recommend that anyone with any interest at all (and whatever their views) should get hold of a copy.

The whole team are obviously passionate and enthusiastic about battlefield archeology and rightly proud of their achievements to date. My observations on site are that their professionalism matches the passion.

I beleive the programmes will be screened in the UK around November of this year.

Ken

[KIRKY]

Thanks Ken great to hear that repect was shown. wished I could have witnessed the events as well. Are there any photos around?

tony

[Ken Lees]

Tony,

I did ask about the team's thoughts on the subject of visitors taking photographs on site and was told that they had no objection as long as they were for private use only. This was partly a respect issue for the deceased men (and any relatives who may be identified in due course) and also I suspect (although this was not mentioned), a desire to avoid any criticism of exploitation of the dead for publicity purposes. I fully accept their concerns and took a large number of photographs on the understanding that they are not reproduced.

I am sure that the team will let us all see their photographs in due course.

Ken

[MartinWills]

I have just finished reading this excellent volume.

For me one of the delights was the way the reader was talked through the process and output from battlefield archeology. I suspect we all make the mistake of believing that this is such recent history and such well recorded history that the practice of daily life at war is clearly understood. It isn't and this book served to demonstrate this remarkably well. I learnt a lot about why odd rifle rounds were discarded - they got dirty and hence unrelaible and prone to contaminate a weapon. It was also interesting to read about the debris left in trench mortar "blitzes". All this and I never felt the authors were talking down to the reader in stating the blindingly obvious.

They also underlined the dangers that still lurk on the western front, whether from explosives or chemical agents both still as deadly as they were 90 years ago, and often more dangerous that they were 90 years ago.

I have long thought that much of the texture of the Western front has been "done to death" and yet I was hearing about the nature of what does survive and gently decays well below the surface. The excavations clearly do grow our knowledge of the Great War and "how it was" especially now since it is almost entirely "beyond living memory".

What became very clear was that if rigorous archeological investigation does not take place evidence will be lost, much of it to the rank amateur or looter digging for a souvenir for the mantelpiece or on an altogether commercial/mercenary basis. Such amateur (I use the word loosely) investigation is also likely to have little respect for the dead other than to strip them of valuables.

The archeologists set out to expand our knowledge and not specifically to find human remains, but it is inevitable that remains will be found and it is clear they are treated with utmost respect - something which others may not do to anything like the same extent. The Imperial War Graves Commission worked hard (and as the CWGC still do) to ensure that victims of the Great War received appropriate burials or commemoration. As part of this they worked tirelessly to recover battlefield burials or lost bodies and to inter them in a fitting manner. Persoanlly I welcome the way in which remains found incidentally during the course of structured archeology on the Western Front and elsewhere are treated. researched and fittingly interred.

In reading the book I found that my air changed as I reached the last chapter which deals with coase studies relating to human remains. I moved from enjoying learning about the nature of the war to holding the archeologists and the men they found in some esteem. In the case of the archeologists for their sensitive and caring handling of the situation and in the case of then men for what they went through. Bodies will continue to be disturbed for many reasons and for centuries to come. To treat them honourably and to ensure thay have a fitting resting place is no bad thing.

[Grace Talbot]

Anyone got this book and "Killing Time - Archaeology and the First World War" by Nicholas Saunders? If so, how much overlap of material is there between the two books and which is better in your opinion, or do you think it's worth getting both books?

[haworthnick]

Good point, I have the book "Killing Time", I have to admit I found the going quite stodgy at times, though there were some very interesting chapters and anecdotes, I partuculary liked the story about a french solider was doing some tunneling but he was using a bronze age axe that he'd found as it was a better tool than the standard issue entrenching tool.

Nick

[Martin Brown]

Anyone got this book and "Killing Time - Archaeology and the First World War" by Nicholas Saunders? If so, how much overlap of material is there between the two books and which is better in your opinion, or do you think it's worth getting both books?

"Killing Time" is the more comprehensive book that gives a good overview of all the current players and projects and is a better presentation of the case in support of this recent archaeology.

[Ken Lees]

"Better" in what way, Martin?

I haven't read "Killing Time.." but it is my list of books to get hold of.

Ken