Scottish Regiments

[geraint]

Could a pal point me out regarding Scottish regiments?

Which ones would be recognised as a 'Lowland' regiment as opposed to 'Highlanders'. Were they all issued with kilts (which I am presuming to be highland dress)?

[mctaz]

Geraint,

I was going to refer you to the Scottish Military Historical Society's website but I've just been greatly surprised & dismayed to see the society disbanded in February. However it looks like the resources on their website have been rescued and are available at: http://www.scottishmilitaryresearch.org.uk

More information can be found at: http://scotsatwar.co.uk

One of the principals behind this Scots at War website (and trust) is Dr Diana Henderson who is also author of a highly recommended title: The Scottish Regiments, Harper Collins, Glasgow 1996

But as a rough guide at the time of the Great War the Highland Regiments (kilted) were:

Argyll & Sutherland Highlanders

Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)

Gordon Highlanders

Seaforth Highlanders

Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders

Lowland Regiments which generally* were not kilted were:

The Cameronians (Scottish Rifles)

The Royal Scots

King's Own Scottish Borderers

Highland Light Infantry (Confusing! but started out as a kilted regiment, then adapted trews and more latterly reverted to kilts)

Royal Scots Fusiliers

* Some "Highland" battalions of Lowland Regiments did wear kilts, and I believe, all pipers wore the kilt irrespective of whether their Regiment was designated Highland or Lowland. I'm sure this will have been discussed elsewhere on this forum

[rgalley]

In addition to what 'mctaz' has already said, to further confuse things 1/6th and 1/9th HLI wore kilts. 1/6th wore Mckenzie and 1/9th wore Govt sett (Black Watch).

1/9th Royal Scots were also kilted.

Pipers were kilted, regardless of whether their unit was Highland, or Lowland.

Also one mustn't overlook the London Scottish and Liverpool Scottish who also wore kilts ... then you've got the Commonwealth to factor-in!

There's a wealth of information already available on the Forum ... if you do a search for 'Scottish Regiments', 'Kilted Regiments' etc., there're hours of highly informative reading to be had.

[Heid the Ba]

And once you sort out Highland and Lowland by dress, you may want to sort them out by recruiting area. The Argylls and the HLI were largely from Glasgow and the Central Belt, and whether Fife and Forfar count as the Highlands is doubtful. The Weegie end of my family were proud Argylls despite viewing everything north of Helensburgh as uninhabitable wilderness.

[geraint]

Thanks for that pals - appreciated.

Did the old clan system have any bearing by 1914? am I right that the Argyles would have recruited from the territories of the Duke of Argyle for example?

Also, would some of the Highland regiments have a fairly substantial number of first language or monolingual Gaelic speakers in 1914? If so, were there any special provisions made for them, especially in providing Gaelic speaking officers?

(I'm trying to make a comparison with Welsh speaking recruits in both RWF and SWB in 1914 onwards. Recruiting meetings, newspapers, posters certainly were printed and published. There was also a great emphasis on Welsh speaking officers, Chaplains, censors etc).

Geraint

[Heid the Ba]

Thanks for that pals - appreciated.

Did the old clan system have any bearing by 1914? am I right that the Argyles would have recruited from the territories of the Duke of Argyle for example?

Sort of, the Highland Clearances meant a large proportion of the former population of the lands of the Duke of Argyll lived in Glasgow! Most of the Argyll TF battalions have regional designations and the bulk are in and around Glasgow, the service battalions were formed at Stirling. There may have been gaelic speakers there but only as a second languauge. Many would speak no gaelic at all being born and bred lowlanders. I'm not sure about the highland "highland" regiments, no doubt someone from those parts can answer, though I suspect the Black Watch soldiers from Dundee and Fife would be urban and anglophone.

Also, would some of the Highland regiments have a fairly substantial number of first language or monolingual Gaelic speakers in 1914? If so, were there any special provisions made for them, especially in providing Gaelic speaking officers?

Never heard of this, I doubt you would find many officers who spoke gaelic prewar.

(I'm trying to make a comparison with Welsh speaking recruits in both RWF and SWB in 1914 onwards. Recruiting meetings, newspapers, posters certainly were printed and published. There was also a great emphasis on Welsh speaking officers, Chaplains, censors etc).

Geraint

Interesting idea but I think the Clearances had largely put an end to gaelic as a first language for the vast majority of highlanders and islanders. I think all schooling was in english by the mid C19th. Actually, having typed that I am starting to doubt if that is true or not. I await enlightenment. The population of the Highlands and Islands was such a small percentage of the total population I don't think it would have mattered how many spoke gaelic.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

HTB,

The Argylls are not a Glasgow Regiment nor were they allocated to this recruiting area during the First World War. The Lanarkshire recruiting area was covered by the Highland Light Infantry and the Scottish Rifles [sic]. However, the Argylls' recruiting area does cover one of the widest and most diverse recruiting regions (like The Black Watch: some Lowland; some Highland). With regards to the mother tongue of the Argylls:east coast would be east-coast Scots, to Gaelic on the West. For the Argylls, the recruiting counties being:

Kinross-shire

Clackmannanshire

Stirlingshire

Dumbartonshire

Renfrewshire

Bute & Arran

Argyllshire

Service Battalions were recruited from all over the recruiting region - not the East coast. That said, you could join any Regiment you wanted, from any region/county of the UK.

Concerning the Territorial Force, the TF were parochial to their own counties (or parts of) within the Argyll recruiting area. This had to be so as you would generally go to the most convenient Drill Hall. The anomally being half of the Highland Cyclists which come under the umbrella of The Black Watch, but were recruited in Stirlingshire. Another anomally being the 5th Argylls TF, who pre-war served in the Black Watch Brigade (The Black Watch and Argylls TF were unallocated to a Division prior to the war and served in their own brigades).

With regards Highlands and Lowlands, HTB is geographically correct. Regiments such as the Argylls and Black Watch have counties such as Forfarshire, Stirlingshire, Clackmannanshire, Fifeshire that fall beneath the 'Highland Line' ( a line which actually passes quite close to Glasgow). However, the origins of the Regiments lie in the Highlands (even the HLI = 71st and 74th) and the counties allocated on the 1914 recruiting map are those allocated due to the Cardwell Reforms 1881.

Hope this is of interest

Aye

Tom McC

[rgalley]

I don't have my reference material to hand to quote from, but the number of men who spoke Gaelic as their first language was a lot more than you'd probably imagine. That would probably apply as much to officers as to their men. The story goes that when the Highland Division was moving South to Bedford in August '14, a rumour spread through the town that Russian troops were on their way, having arrived in Northern Scotland from Archangel. The rumour was based on the fact that the soldiers who the rumour-monger had encountered didn't speak English amongst themselves.

Pre-war most of the Scottish TF units would have drawn from localised recruiting areas and most, if not all, had regional designations. Blurring of boundaries really starts to bite on mobilisation and the move South. Many units needed to recruit up to wartime complement. THis was achieved by continuing to recruit in the unit's home area, as well as recruiting locally in the areas where they found themselves quartered after coming South. For example, the component elements of the Highland Division actively recruited in the Bedford area and down into London some 50 miles away. As the war progressed and the need to replace casualties became paramount, the mixing-up of nationalities, not to mention regions, became commonplace.

It's an interesting subject in itself and one that others will be able to help shed more light on for us, hopefully

[geraint]

Thanks for that . Apologies for my misspelling of Argylls. My interest stems from a Ruthin youngster (first language Welsh, with only basic English) and all his mates joining RWF) who joined the Argylls "because he fancied wearing a kilt" (family explanation), and this would have been August 1914.

Geraint

[mctaz]

The figures for native Gaelic speakers in the census of 1911 indicate that only 4.3% of the Scottish population spoke Gaelic, the total number being 202,398 (men women & children)

Of this total 184,000 were bilingual and only 18,400 spoke Gaelic as their only language. So the number of Scottish troops from Highland regiments who spoke only Gaelic would be around 0.4%

Refer to: http://www.visionofbritain.org.uk/census/r...POP&show=DB

If we accept this figure then of the 584,098 Scots who served in the Army through 1914-1918 only 2,336 could have been monolingual Gaels

Piper's reference to: "...rumour spread through the town that Russian troops were on their way, having arrived in Northern Scotland from Archangel. The rumour was based on the fact that the soldiers who the rumour-monger had encountered didn't speak English amongst themselves." could well have applied to Scottish troops speaking Scots. If you think about it, that's quite feasible, we're more acquainted with regional dialects/accents nowadays with TV and Radio, but 90 years ago it was quite different. Even today TV shows such as "Taggart" have subtitles on TV here in Australia.

I recall reading that some Scots soldiers found communicating with native Flemish speakers easier than with other soldiers from the UK

[Tom A McCluskey]

Geraint,

The simplest way to define the Highland and Lowland regiments is those that lie in military Region 1 with its HQ in Perth. This is a line that, roughly speaking, lies between the River Forth and the Clyde. Everything north of this is grouped as Highland Regiments (and usually 'Highland' was added to the name of the: Battery of RFA, or Company of Engineers, or Field Ambulance, etc., that was based in this region) and everything south of this line is in Region 2 with its HQ in Hamilton. Region 2 is denoted as the Lowland Regiments. The odd one being the HLI whose pre-Cardwell antecedent Regiments were both Highland Regiments (71st and 74th of foot), but its post-Cardwell allocation of 'real estate' made it a Lowland Regiment in military eyes. This is something which was problematic during the Boer war when the HLI were the only regiment in the Highland Brigade that wore trews. The regions have pretty much stayed as they were (Highland Brigade, Lowland Brigade) up until the recent amalgamation of the Scottish Regiments into the new RRS.

The Argyll battalion that would most likely contain a large percentage of Gaelic speakers would be the 8th, whose recruiting base was largely in the West Highlands (Argyllshire). They served in the Highland Division. Also in the Highland Division (till June 1916), was the 6th Argylls who were recruited mainly in Paisley, Renfrewshire. This did create some rivalries with reference to whose Highland credentials were more fitting .

I have not looked into this, but I would have thought that the mainstay of the Gaelic speakers would have been in the Cameron's and Seaforth's recruiting areas. As HTB mentioned, after the 'forty-five' the speaking of Gaelic and wearing of Highland garb was outlawed. How rigidly this was policed would be difficult to determine.

Again, hope this is of interest

Aye

Tom McC

[geraint]

Tom, McTaz, Piper, heid the Ba

Most grateful for your illuminating points. You refer to 'Scots', which is an English derived language and I presumed to be a dialect rather than a language. Am I right, or is it a Gaelic derivative, or a mixture of both? Would appreciate your comments in general, and on all three language implications for Scottish Regiments during WW1. Thanks in advance!

Geraint

[rgalley]

Tom, McTaz, Piper, heid the Ba

Most grateful for your illuminating points. You refer to 'Scots', which is an English derived language and I presumed to be a dialect rather than a language. Am I right, or is it a Gaelic derivative, or a mixture of both? Would appreciate your comments in general, and on all three language implications for Scottish Regiments during WW1. Thanks in advance!

Geraint

Geraint,

I think McTaz is referring to a heavy / broad Scots accent / dialect when speaking English rather than anything involving Gaelic.

Interesting statistics, McTaz. Still, that's nearly 2.5 battalions worth of troops speaking Gaelic as their only language! Also, one can't assume that bilinguals would automatically choose to speak English as their first language?

W. N. Nicholson sums it up:

We [the Highland Divsion] were a polyglot formation who met together for the first time in Bedford ... units composed of miners, fishermen and townsmen, of men whose speech varied from Gaelic to the best King's English in the kingdom ..." ('Behind the Lines' Col W.N. Nicholson CMG, DSO - 1939)

Safe to say then, that on the numbers we're talking the number of Gaelic-only speakers would have been sufficiently diluted by the bilinguals, or English / Scots only speakers around them not to have caused major issues.

Useful information, thanks

P.S. McTaz, it's not just happening in Oz, these days the BBC seems to have taken to subtitling the speech of anyone who comes from North of Edinburgh!

[BigT]

Re the word "Scots". I well remember using the word Scotch to refer to the Scots, in the hearing of my Sergeant Major. " Laddie, Scotch comes oot o a bottle, Scots come frae Scotland. Who was I to argue.

[geraint]

Geraint,

Interesting statistics, McTaz. Still, that's nearly 2.5 battalions worth of troops speaking Gaelic as their only language! Also, one can't assume that bilinguals would automatically choose to speak English as their first language?

Going on the Welsh comparison, many of the recruits filling the Service battalions would be nominally bilingual, with men possessing enough English to respond to official needs. Work, religion and social life was and still is overwhelmingly Welsh in many towns and villages. There was an intense campaign in 1915 regarding training at Litherland where an anti Welsh stance was taken by the lower army echelons, with a 'Welsh not' policy taken leading to punishment meted out. It took Lloyd George, himself a Welsh speaker, to finally alleviate the situation. Local newspapers here carry many letters by concerned parents and local worthies regarding this subject. I take your point that the highland clearances had an abominable affect on the Gaelic language and traditions.

Again, any similar comparisons with the Scottish regiments are appreciated.

[mctaz]

Geraint, the Scots Language afficionados would have it as a seperate language, that has little in common with Modern English.

For an in depth outline of "Lallans" see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scots_language

Trevorl, interesting to note that up until around the time of the Great War, the terms Scotch & Scots were interchangeable! Supposedly using the term Scotch for whisky only came into usage in the USA to differentiate it from Irish whiskey, both of which were consumed in equal amounts unlike the situation in the UK where whisky generally meant one thing.

Scotsmen did refer to themselves as Scotchmen, but that usage has fallen out of favour...

But nowadays we just like to be contrary & take exception to what Sassenachs call us.

[eltoro1960]

Just to further complicate matters the Highland Division did not all wear kilts, the 8th Royal Scots were the 51st Pioneers and were the only men in the division to wear trousers. They were mostly miners from Midlothian and East Lothian and would have spoke in a very different dialect from the Highlanders, miners also used a lot of terminology /languge from the industry as well that few outsiders would have understood, As my Grandad would have said, "Neeb's yir talking a load o' red " (Neighbour your talking a load of rubbish) Red was the waste that formed pit bings.

Re Scots the language, a lot of the older Lowland words had origins in French due to the Auld Alliance, and on teh east coast were adapted to sound Scottish eg assiette / ashette (serving plate), some are Gemanic in origin ie Kirk still commonly used by older people when talking about church.

John (or Jock as my mates call me )

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

I agree with McTaz, Scots and Scotch used to be the same thing. A Scotsman used to be a Scotchman.

Ref 8 Royal Scots (a conformist trewed Battalion of a Lowland Regiment), I agree, they did not wear kilts but neither did any of the other service or support arms in the Highland Division . As you are all aware, they were not in one of the Highland Division's fighting Brigades (151, 152, & 153 Brigades).

As John mentioned, there are similarities in East Coast language that are particularly similar in East Coast port towns who would trade with the French (wines - especially claret into Leith docks). John mentioned words from the French, likewise, in Dundee there are quite a few, a typical example would be 'cundie' (drain) from the French conduit. There would also be trade with Nordic/Baltic States (Riga bowls), et al; because of this there has been a continuance of Germanic/Middle English pronunciation of words. I have mentioned this on another thread, but even numbers and items are very similar between East coast Scots dialect and Norwegian.

There is some good analysis of the Dundee dialect (which includes other East Coast dialects) within the bottom three paragraphs of this thread:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/voices/recordings/gro...nd-dundee.shtml

Aye

Tom McC

[geraint]

Thanks all for your valuable information, and giving me a view of Scottish linguistics which I had barely considered.

To summarise - a percentage of Highlanders would be monolingual Gaelic, a larger proportion bilingual, whilst Scot as an English derived language with European influences would have a stronger East Coast, Lowland usage (and amongst bilingual Gaelic speakers.)

So far you are uncertain about the existence of either Gaelic or Scot language recruiting posters, but probable that the more Gaelic battalions would have had a small degree of Gaelic speaking officers, but highly unlikely that any specific orientation provided for those men (viz the Welsh speaking battalions regarding Litherland,chaplains etc).

One other question!

Did local recruiting areas throughout all parts of Scotland utilise any periods or figures in Scottish history as recruiting influences? In Wales, most of the 38th Welsh Division recruiting meetings had speeches about Owain Glyndwr, and how today's Welshmen would follow in his footstep. St David appeared in recruiting posters. Did the same happen up North? Appeals to the spirit of Wallace and the Bruce? Were there any Gaelic newspapers, and would they be influential?

So many questions - but your replies are much appreciated.

Geraint

[Moriaty]

Belatedly, thanks for the Scots are War web site link, not strictly linked to the Great War, but I found information on a Second War soldier, Hector MacMaster, born in Leslie, Fife, who served in the Black Watch in the 1920s, emigrated to Australia, served with the AIF, was captured at Singapore, died as a POW in Thailand. He is commemorated on the Leslie War Memorial and on a gravestone in Falkland cemetery, Fife, Scotland.

[mctaz]

Geraint,

I doubt that any notable figures in Scottish history were utilised as part of a recruiting campaign. Scotland was (and is still) proud of its martial history but the more recent part of that pertaining to the 19th century and the part Scottish regiments played in the battles of the Empire would have loomed larger in the Scottish psyche than the heroes of the 14th century. I'd be interested to hear otherwise.

In the 50's and 60's our reading material of Scottish history at Primary school in Scotland, was a very slim booklet, high school history didn't seem to expand on that but focused on the history of the Empire, as did Geography. I learnt more in High school Geography about Canada & Australia than I ever did about Scotland.

Moriaty, what battalion did Hector McMaster serve with during WW2? Just reading about the 2/40th and Sparrow Force just now and was talking to a couple of ex-POW's last week, neither of whom I was astonished to hear have ever been interviewed to get their stories!

[Tom A McCluskey]

Geraint,

Like this:

Aye

Tom McC

[Gibbo]

The census figures linked by mctaz above also give the number of Gaelic speakers in the 2 previous censuses. In 1891 there were 43,738 people who spoke only Gaelic, which had fallen to 28,106 by 1901. This rate of decline suggests that relatively few of the 18,400 Gaelic only speakers in 1911 would have been young enough to serve in the Army in WWI.

Gaelic speakers

[rgalley]

On an unconnected matter, forum member Rob Bulloch has just confirmed to me that of the 4th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders who came to Bedford in 1914, two thirds of the officers and ORs were Gaelic spoken. This squares with previous postings from others involved in the debate.

[Just Barbara]

My ancestors who came from the west side of Scotland before they emigrated to Ulster, spoke Lallans ( or Ullans), as this language/dialect still exists in Ulster, would a lot of men have spoken it in ww1? Incidently my late father, born in Holywood county Down did most of his service in the Gordon Highlanders, evidently it was the sight of him in his kilt that did it for mum...

Barbara