Scottish Regiments

[Rob Bulloch]

On an unconnected matter, forum member Rob Bulloch has just confirmed to me that of the 4th Queens Own Cameron Highlanders who came to Bedford in 1914, two thirds of the officers and ORs were Gaelic spoken. This squares with previous postings from others involved in the debate.

Hello the Forum.

What a very interesting thread this has turned out to be. This is a part of the narrative I sent to Piper (on an unconnected matter) At the outbreak of war on the 4th August 1914, the 4th Bn Cameron Highlanders.(TF) was mobilised as a unit of the Seaforth and Cameron Brigade (TF), commanded respectively by Colonel D.A.Macfarlane, DSO., and Major-General Colin J. Mackenzie, CB. Not withstanding that the battalion was spread over the County of Inverness,and even to the Outer Hebrides, mobilisation was effected with such smoothness and rapidity that it was practically complete within four days of the declaration of war.

They came from areas of Fortrose, Cromarty and Inverness, "E" Company from Lochaber, "H" Company from Portree and North Uist, and "D" Company from Strath and Raasay, Skye.. On the 11th August the 4th Bn Camerons Highlanders returned to Inverness to join the rest of the Highland (TF) Brigade, 4th, 5th and 6th Battalions Seaforth Highlanders. The Narrative goes on to say that the personnel of the Battalion was entirely Highland; two thirds of the Officers were Gailic speaking and about the same proportion of the rank and file.

Now I would take out of this that the Camerons and the Seaforth were predominatly Gailic speakers if you consider there geographical area..

Yours Aye Rob.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Hi All,

Here is a Regimental map of the areas we are talking about.

Aye

Tom McC

[rgalley]

Hi All,

Here is a Regimental map of the areas we are talking about.

Aye

Tom McC

Hi Tom,

Thank you for sharing the map ... most useful.

I can't make out which unit's name appears up near Elgin (I should have gone to Specsavers!), can you confirm, please?

Regards

Richard

[geraint]

Is it a sub-region for Seaforths?

[truthergw]

Seaforths it is.

[truthergw]

Geraint, very interesting thread this. With reference to Wallace and Bruce, they famously fought against English tyranny. Perhaps not the best role models for the Great War.

[geraint]

Tom A

What about the Berwick region? There's a 'The...'

Tom R

In Wales, they appealed to both Glyndwr (war 1400-1416) and Llywelyn (d 1282) who were both anti English natural Welsh princes both engaged in decade long anti English wars, and still remain the natural 'Princes of Wales' as far as the Welsh are concerned. The recruiting campaigns of 1914-15 utilised both to represent the battle against tyranny - namely in 1914 - the Boche! This was Welsh language medium. You must remember, that in 1911, almost a million people in Wales described themselves as 'bilingual', of which the vast majority would have been natural mother language Welsh).

The English medium campaign in Wales tended to utilise St David. There's a famous poster depicting St David looking at Kitchener Men marching in the background, and the caption "Will you March the First (or wait untill March the second)" (Compulsion/conscription came in on March 2nd 1917). Very clever!

[Tom A McCluskey]

Geraint,

Berwick is on the map, ye ken thit Berwick is the only HQ of of a Scottish Regiment in England , and you can see it is in Region 2 (KOSB).

Aye

Tom McC

[BigT]

Re Elgin, Its Gordon Territory!!!! Keep off.

[Tom A McCluskey]

Trevor,

I am afraid you are incorrect. Elgin is in the Seaforths area. Elgin provided companies for the 3rd Volunteer Battalion, Seaforth Highlanders. Which after the formation of the Territorial Force in 1908 became companies of the 6th Bn Seaforth Highlanders T.F.

Hope this helps

Aye

Tom McC

[Roxy]

The Elgin War Memorial has more Seaforths than any other regiment; incidentally, the next most 'popular' regiment is the CEF - Gordons next.

Roxy

PS fit like ma loons? (translated as 'How do you do?)

[truthergw]

Aye aye, mannie. Jist chavin' awa, ye ken. ( I am bilingual, I can speak Dundee tae).

Geraint, Wallace's head ended up on a pole at Smithfield as a traitor. The English would be quite right to tiptoe around him when seeking role models. He and Bruce are just as likely to stir anti-English feelings as patriotism. Perhaps the difference between Bruce and Wallace and Owen Glendower is that we kept our freedom. These men represent a successful endeavour to resist English power. Language is not an indicator of Scots nationality. Speaking Gaelic marks one as a member of a particular part of the Scots commonality. I speak with a Scots accent, specifically Dundonian, and my name can be found in the Scots border marches as far back as the 11th C. I am just as Scots as a man from Skye. There was never a time when all Scots spoke Gaelic. The Picts had their own, now vanished tongue.

[geraint]

Tom

I wouldn't even dream of commenting on the Gaelic /Scot/English/Pict situation linguistically, and have only raised the topic for information regarding FWW for comparisons with the Welsh situation regarding Welsh/Gaelic recruiting languages. I'm well aware that the history of both countries are different, and historical developments do influence modern conceptions of nationhood!

Having said that - Llywelyn in 1282 had his head on a spike on London Bridge, and his brother Dafydd was the first ever to be hanged drawn and quartered in 1284. Glyndwr was different - he was never caught nor found, and disappeared into legend in 1416. The recruiting ampaign in 1914, and the creation of the Welsh Army drew heavily on both. Another aspect of my question was to ask whether nationalist heroes were also utilised in Scotland - Robbie Burns doesn't quite fit that mold.

I'r Gad (ancient Welsh battle cry - 'To Battle'!

[truthergw]

I think that Scots were urged to do their bit for Great Britain and the Empire and there was reference to the military prowess of Scots and Highlanders. Scots had been fighting for the crown for a long time, The Black Watch have a battle honour, Ticonderoga(sp?), from the American wars of independence. Plenty of material for propaganda there without invoking men who fought against England and for Scotland's independence. Robert Burns wrote ' Scots wha Hae ', Bruce's address to the Scots at Bannockburn and he also wrote " What a parcel of rogues in a nation", referring to the decision by the Scot's parliament to vote itself out of existence. He wasn't all about love songs and throstles singing in thorny dens.

[Black Jock]

I think that Scots were urged to do their bit for Great Britain and the Empire and there was reference to the military prowess of Scots and Highlanders. Scots had been fighting for the crown for a long time, The Black Watch have a battle honour, Ticonderoga(sp?), from the American wars of independence. Plenty of material for propaganda there without invoking men who fought against England and for Scotland's independence. Robert Burns wrote ' Scots wha Hae ', Bruce's address to the Scots at Bannockburn and he also wrote " What a parcel of rogues in a nation", referring to the decision by the Scot's parliament to vote itself out of existence. He wasn't all about love songs and throstles singing in thorny dens.

Tom,

A wee correction, the first battle forTiconderoga 1758 was a defeat, no Honours awarded, tho' when they returned to the same field a year later the 1st and 2nd Bn's carried the battle that day in half an hour. The battle Houour gained was North America 1763-1764. Which was of course against the French. No Honours can be boasted for the American War of Independence 1776, as "no Honours can be granted for a war against our kith and kin"

Tom

[

[Tom A McCluskey]

Geraint,

There was no real need for as much of an enthusiastic recruiting drive as there was in other countries of the UK. In Scotland, joining the Army was always seen as an honourable profession, and there was no real social stigma attached - so lots joined.

"I would rather bury you than see you in a red coat."

The mother of Sir William Robert Robertson, 1st Baronet, GCB, GCMG, GCVO, DSO

Incidentally, per head of population, there were more Scots serving in the Army than people from any other country of the UK.

Aye

Tom McC

[truthergw]

I stand corrected. 7 Years war then? I must have a look at that one day.

[George Armstrong Custer]

"They are hardy, intrepid, accustomed to a rough country, and no great mischief if they fall." - General James Wolfe's now notorious observation upon employing Highland troops at the Battle of the Plains of Abraham, September, 1759.

"I make no claim for Scotland to be held more worthy than any other part of our Great Empire, either for the valour of her splendid sons or for the sacrifice that those at home have made so freely during the past years. Soldiers from all parts of the Empire have fought under my command, and I give the palm of valour to none more than another, when all have shown themselves so great. All have an equal claim to my gratitude and consideration, as a Commander, who from all has had most loyal and most splendid service.

Yet must I own to a sense of peculiar pleasure and satisfaction that the men of the country from whence I come have played their part so well, and in all their actions on every field and in every theatre of war have shown that they, like their ancestors, are second to none in battle, as they are undoubtedly second to none in the arts of peace." - Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, Renfrew, May 8, 1919.

"T[he] wider sense of patriotism is compatible with a strong sense of local patriotism. For this reason the strength of the wider patriotism was by many not fully appreciated till the war revealed it. I am a Scot, I have no desire to be an Englishman. No Englishman of my acquaintance ever confessed to me his secret chagrin that he was not born in Scotland." - Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, University of St Andrews, May 14, 1919.

"There is an old slander, oft repeated by the ignorant and irreverent south of the Border, that Scotland is a grand country to go away from. I grant that we Scotsmen are an enterprising race and that we find our way into most countries, but we none of us forget the land of our birth, and I for one can vouch for it that Scotland is a wonderful place to come back to. Last Saturday you gave a welcome to a gallant body of Canadians, many of whom, probably, could trace their origin from this city, and, despite their pride and affection for their own great land, had not forgotten the old country. They too know what it is to come back to Scotland, and I am confident that they would agree with me and confirm what I say

No country can be really great that has not a proper national pride, and therefore I see no reason why, on an occasion such as this, I should not freely express my pride in my own countrymen, whose great deeds I have witnessed, whose qualities time and again have filled me with admiration. Here in this capital city of Scotland, as you, Sir, have said, we honour all Scottish Regiments, from whatsoever part of Scotland they come, and we do not forget those other regiments with Scottish traditions which are recruited from other portions of the Empire. We are glad that the strong national feeling and independent individuality for which Scotland has always been famous, still exists to inspire our men in battle; so that the Scottish Regiments bear a name and reputation as high as any of the regiments that make up the mighty armies of our Empire." - Field Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, Edinburgh, May 28, 1919.

ciao,

GAC

[geraint]

Geraint,

There was no real need for as much of an enthusiastic recruiting drive as there was in other countries of the UK. In Scotland, joining the Army was always seen as an honourable profession, and there was no real social stigma attached - so lots joined.

"I would rather bury you than see you in a red coat."

The mother of Sir William Robert Robertson, 1st Baronet, GCB, GCMG, GCVO, DSO

Incidentally, per head of population, there were more Scots serving in the Army than people from any other country of the UK.

Aye

Tom McC

Tom

There was no social stigma involved in Wales neither - so lots joined. The appeal to nationalism was for the men to join the Welsh Army -(38th Division); and not to join foreign regiments like the Cheshires etc etc.

I'm not sure about your view that more Scots served in comparison to Wales, Ireland, England per head of population. Do you have comparative figures?

I'r gad

Geraint

[George Armstrong Custer]

The following statistics are gleaned from Trevor Royle's The Flowers of the Forest:

In 1914 Scotland made up just 10.6% of the British (including Ireland) population. Yet 13% of those who volunteered in 1914-15 were Scots. This was not a new phenomenon brought about by the Great War, however. War Office figures show that 26.9% of men aged 15 - 49 volunteering for the British army in 1911 were Scots - a substantial over respresentation from a nation making up only around 10% of the UK population. Royle quotes Diana Henderson's research into the composition of the Highland regiments between 1870 and 1920, which leads her to conclude that, despite seasonal man-power problems, 'soldiering was widely looked upon as a respectable profession in Scotland.'

ciao,

GAC

[Lachlan07]

The HLI were the most misunderstood regiment in the whole British Army !

They never accepted themselves as Lowland and fought the authorities till the end !

The public at large view on them was they were Lowland because:-

a) They recruited in Glasgow (and part-Lanarkshire)

They wore trews as per Lowland regiments - no kilts

c) They were in the 52nd Lowland Division

I totally disagree with that thinking.

When you think of the logic trail, being Highland makes perfect sense. When raised in the 18th Century, all regular Highland regiments (most of whom came on the scene after their Lowland colleagues were already in existence) wore militarised Highland Dress. That meant the original belted plaid, or simplified belted plaid or the little kilt. Lowland regiments, having no cultural tradition of Gaelic, Highland Dress etc, were perfectly happy in standard "English" uniform, with badges and colours adorned by the odd thistle or two. Highland regiments sometimes wore breeches or trousers while stationed in certain climates, but trews were not really adopted until the 91st's wore them to Walcheren expedition in 1808. The 93rd's wore them on the New Orleans expedition of 1814/15. Meanwhile in 1808/9, as we all know so well, a number of Highland regiments were deprived of their Highland distinction, due to the influx of Englishmen to cover losses and shortages of Scottish recruits. These were the 72nd, 73rd, 74th, 75th and 91st. That same year, the Light Infantry experiement was expanded and a Highland regiment was converted - the 71st. There was already a Lowland Light Infantry regiment (the 90th Perthshire LI). So now there was a Highland Light Infantry Regiment. It was thought that Highland dress was unsuitable and out of step for the Light Infantry arm and that LI dress was distinguishable enough. So the HLI adopted standard Light Infantry dress, but had their new shako modelled on a blocked out Highland round hummel bonnet (complete with dicing, tourie and ribbon tails). Being Highland, they officially kept their pipers. Compare theis to the dekilted Highland regiments who had no Highland items at all and officially lost their pipers.

When King George IV and Sir Walter Scott kick-started the romantic Highland revival in the 1820's, KGIV's magnanimity led to "rehabilitating" one de-kilted regiment. the one chosen was the most senior - the 72nd (that is because the 71st's were still Highland and also Light Infantry). The 72nd adopted all Highland dress and weapons etc, including feather bonnet and white hackle. However, as a cost expedient, they could wear trews and Highland "scarves". In true Romantic style they adopted an ever so romantic version of the Royal Stuart Tartan, the neo-Jacobite "Prince Charles Edward Stuart" tartan. It obviously pained the 71st to be bypassed but in 1835 were appeased when they were awarded similar Highland dress to the 72nd. However, they chose their historic MacKenzie tartan (different sett size to the 78th) and being Light Infantry, kept their shakos with the dicing band. In 1844, the 74th was permitted to adopt similar Highland dress to the HLI, except for their tartan they chose Government sett with a white overstripe (their facing colour) and called it Lamont. This harked back to being the first of the Argyll regiments, owing origins to South Argyll (Lamont) rather than North and Mid-Argyll (Campbell). In 1864, the 91st Argyllshire were granted this modifed Highland dress, adopting a strange tartan, Campbell of Cawdor, instead of Campbell of Argyll.

So, by the Childers reform of 1881, Highland regiments in kilts were:- 42nd, 78th, 79th, 92nd and 93rd. Highland regiments in Highland trews were:- 71st HLI, 72nd, 74th and 91st. "Ex-Highland" regiments still in standard English dress were 73rd and 75th. These two regiments were very happy and proud to wear standard uniform and didn't want to change. In 1881, the Lowland regiments jumped on the tartan bandwagon (some happily like the 26th, others unwillingly like the 21st RSF). Suddenly the 1st, 21st, 25th, 26th and 90th were all wearing tartan trews ! The kilted, trewed and anglified Highland regiments merged to form new regiments and the 72nd and 91st took to kilts instead of trews. This left the 71st and 74th, merged as 1st and 2nd Btns HLI, in trews. The hijacking of trews by the Lowland regiments now started to muddy the waters. By the early 20th Century, common perception was developing that Highland regiments wore kilts, Lowland wore trews. For the HLI, their regimental depot being Hamilton, was for admin reasons, allocated to Lowland district. Yet a mere few miles away, Stirling, HQ of the Argylls, was allocated to Highland district. The vast influx of WW! and again in WW2 promulgated the supposition that the HLI were Lowland, though with a Highland ancestral name. However, not to be outdone, after WW2, the HLI petitioned for the kilt, as this - rightly or wrongly - had become the symbol of Highlandness and trews was seen as Lowland. THe HLI were going for double-jeopardy - a sort of "we've always been Highland but if it takes wearing a kilt to make it so obvious - then so be it". Surprisingly, amidst all the government cutbacks, the HLI were granted the kilt in 1948 and officially reinstated as a Highland regiment. They wore the post-war piper green dress coatee of Highland regiments with buff turnbacks, balmoral bonnet, HLI MacKenzie sett kilt (and trews), white leather sporran and patterned hose and white spats and all other Highland orders of dress, until amalgamated with the RSF's in 1959. Then it was back into trews until 2006, when the RHF, becoming 2nd RRS, adopted the Black Watch kilt with the Argylls' box-pleating !

Quite a roller-coaster of a history !

God Bless Hell's Latest Invention !

[Chris_Baker]

Compulsion/conscription came in on March 2nd 1917

1916

[daggers]

On a trivial diversion, there was an earlier quotation of 'Scots wha hae'. Having two Scots grandmothers I was brought up to know what this means and to realise that the phrase is truncated, but has it been adapted (by Eric Morecambe and others) into the modern popular cry sounding like 'way hay'?

Daggers

[Lachlan07]

The following statistics are gleaned from Trevor Royle's The Flowers of the Forest:

In 1914 Scotland made up just 10.6% of the British (including Ireland) population. Yet 13% of those who volunteered in 1914-15 were Scots. This was not a new phenomenon brought about by the Great War, however. War Office figures show that 26.9% of men aged 15 - 49 volunteering for the British army in 1911 were Scots - a substantial over respresentation from a nation making up only around 10% of the UK population. Royle quotes Diana Henderson's research into the composition of the Highland regiments between 1870 and 1920, which leads her to conclude that, despite seasonal man-power problems, 'soldiering was widely looked upon as a respectable profession in Scotland.'

ciao,

GAC

I also understood that something 149,000 Scots died in the Great War, which must I think be in the order of nearly a quarter of Great War deaths from the British Isles (commonwealth/empire excluded). Yet Scotland's population must have been about a tenth of the British population ?

[rgalley]

The HLI were the most misunderstood regiment in the whole British Army !

They wore trews as per Lowland regiments - no kilts

1/6 (TF) and 1/9 (TF) HLI were kilted.