Oh, what a lovely war!

[MartinWills]

Interesting to make the comparison with other staged representations such as Journey's End. Interestingly Journey's End came at a time of rethink attitudes towards the war. Around 1930 there was an increased move towards pacifism and a re-interpretation of the Great War in writing, performance and film. The 1960's, equally, saw the start of a revival of interest in the war coupled with a further period of pacifism - a time when the influence and campaigning of CND was at a high.

Keep the Home fires Burning. Hmmm. That one tune "made" Ivor Novello - he probably never needed to work again. He never palnned to write a patriotic song, telling his mother when she made the suggestion "Oh, no, mother - simply everyone is writing patriotic songs". Prompted, however by some of the more appalling efforts he wrote one of the classics. One of the earliest performances, if not the first was one Ivor himself gave whilst entertaining the troops in France. The writer of the lyrics, Lena Guilbert Ford was an American who sadly did not survive the war. She was killed in an air raid on London and I always think of her when I hear the song.

[PBI]

No Offence Taken Ian..It serves Me right for Reading the Spelling from A Derek and Clive CD Cover...I was just looking at a Book of WW1 Song and Poems Compiled by Martin Stephen Entitled "Never Such Innocence" that katie might find of great use.In the Book he has Collected Hundreds of British Soldiers Songs,Limericks,Poems,etc,etc,and has compiled them into Sections entitled,Before The War,Early Days,Combat,The Romantic,Tradition,Animals and Nature,Foreign Fields,The War at Sae and in The Air,The Home Front,After.It is an Excellent Book and well worth a Read,as all the Songs,Limericks,Poems are completely unexpurgated.It is an invaluable resource.

[IanA]

That looks very interesting Russ. I have two extensive collections and various music copies. I have just ordered a copy of Stephen's book.

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

OWALW shows itself to be far from accurate, then. "Censored"? That would seem to me to suffice as a description of what happened to those songs - 'I don't want to be a soldier' springs to mind. I was aware the film showed that particular piece of witticism in a somewhat dilluted state.

[Dragon]

As for patriotic songs - I have a scrap-book dating from 1914 to 1915. I don't know who created it, though I know where it came from. Anyway, among other themes that interested the person who stuck the clippings into the book, one seems to have been the patriotic and inspirational verses which were appearing daily in the newspapers. Some of them are, borrowing Martin's word, appalling. I suppose I ought to give a few examples, but I'd need to scan them, and I'd probably be accused of being elitist. No wonder Mr Novello's composition caught on.

Katie. you're aware, are you, that the title Oh! What a lovely war! is itself a music hall title? It's spawned a few plays on words, such as the production a couple of years ago called Oh! WoT a lovely war! (in which WoT stood for War On Terror - contrived, I know) which was particularly political. I didn't see it, but I imagine the press release is still on the Lowry's website. (Incidentally, check the punctuation in the Littlewood play title.)

The point about Blackadder is that it isn't about the Great War at all. The war is just another historical period in which to place the characters to get a few more laughs out of them.

Gwyn

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Yes, I was aware. Does it make any difference to the originality of Littlewood's play?

And, I've only seen Blackadder Goes Forth, so I wouldn't know really. But I've heard it referred to as the most ambitious, as it was, as you mentioned previously, toeing the line between comedy and bitterness.

[MartinWills]

I think in practice some versions of the play are less censored than others, particularly when geared to (say) younger audiences or maiden aunts. Other productions have reinstated words/versions that may have been censored.

[Dragon]

As to the originality: no. The discussion had arrived at songs and it just seemed a relevant observation. It raises questions about why she chose that title (irony? or?) and then it's quite interesting to see how it becomes a clichéd catchphrase in public use. (Oh! What a lovely.... whatever. Just google "oh what a lovely" -war) A rather obscure music hall song title of a hundred years ago has entered the language as a permanent addition to its repertoire.

Just musing, really.

Gwyn

[Steven Broomfield]

what value it could possibly have for students studying for a unit entitled 'Reading For Meaning'

None whatsoever.

As any fule kno, it was filmed exclusively in Slough.

And for what it's worth, I disliked the film very much: indeed, almost as much as any other film I've seen which was made by dear old Dickey.

Philistine. Moi? Never.

[truthergw]

I found it very interesting to read right through this thread. I know almost all of the songs, words and music. I learned them from my Mum and Dad, who would occasionally sing them around the house. I hired a DVD of the film not long ago and found it literally unwatchable. I tried several times but to no avail. I settled for fast forwarding from song to song. Great songs, cr*p film.

[PBI]

That looks very interesting Russ. I have two extensive collections and various music copies. I have just ordered a copy of Stephen's book.

Ian,Regarding Soldiers Songs,I have in my Collection a Real Gem,it is Cpl Ernest Dwyer V.C. of 1st Battalion,The East Surrey Regt actually Singing a Couple of Soldiers Songs,these songs and His Interview are Believed to Be the only Surviving Aural Recordings of a WW1 V.C..The Recording was lifted from an Original Wax Drum Recording,so the Sound is not HI Fi,but is of Great Quality considering when it was Recorded..If you would like a Copy Please feel Free to ask.Dwyer Won His V.C. at Hill 60 in 1915,and was Later KIA on the Somme.He is Buried in Flat Iron Copse Military Cemetery.

None whatsoever.

As any fule kno, it was filmed exclusively in Slough.

And for what it's worth, I disliked the film very much: indeed, almost as much as any other film I've seen which was made by dear old Dickey.

Philistine. Moi? Never.

With You ALL the Way Steve.

[IanA]

Ian,Regarding Soldiers Songs,I have in my Collection a Real Gem,it is Cpl Ernest Dwyer V.C. of 1st Battalion,The East Surrey Regt actually Singing a Couple of Soldiers Songs,

Thanks for the offer Russ. I already have it. I think (without looking it up to check) that on the same recording there is an 18 pounder battery firing off some shells. A strange toy-town sound. Not what I would have expected.

[Terry_Reeves]

I enjoyed ithe film very much. It was a good piece of inventive entertainment. I have never regarded it as a true record of events, but that doesn't really matter as very few films provide a totally accurate view of anything. For me, it is a valuable addition to the anti-war genre of film-making, no different in that respect to the film version of Remarque's All Quiet on the Western Front or Jean Renoir's La Grand Illusion which have been regarded as classic films for several decades now.

TR

[Tom Kilkenny]

Katie,

I do, for my sins, teach the AQA spec A Level.

I take it you're into your second year. Just make sure you have a clear understanding of form, structure and language and you'll be fine in the Summer!

Bonne chance.

Tom

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Form, structure and language - that and a little passion here and there and I suspect I shall safely see it through!

I am gratified to see an English teacher of the AQA spec on the forum. Mine seem to regard the synoptic unit on the First World War as merely another topic they have to teach - to teach, polish and galvanize us in so we can leap through those hoops!

Well, OWALW does not seem to be a favourite of many on the forum, and I hope that in creating a discussion thread on the film production, I have not created the impression that it is one of my personal favourites. As I have said before, I thought it had its moments, but other than that, I think I still abstain from judgement. Unfortunately, it is generally those texts that I have no strong response towards with which I find it most difficult to engage in the exam - and it's those with which I require help!

[Martin Brown]

This Film has been Extensively Covered in Various other Threads on this Forum...does it really need to be Re Hashed and Dissected Ad Nauseum...???...Pointless..just like the Play,Film,and Cast.

And futile?

Just like the War?

Anyway, before I have to dive for cover, this work seems almost single handedly to have altered public perception of the conflict and, since that debate rages, perhaps this debate should continue to rage...

[Martin Brown]

None whatsoever.

As any fule kno, it was filmed exclusively in Slough.

And for what it's worth, I disliked the film very much: indeed, almost as much as any other film I've seen which was made by dear old Dickey.

Philistine. Moi? Never.

Apart, of course, for the bits in and around Brighton. You can still follow Haig's car down the lane if you walk north from Falmer and the infilled trenches are out on the Downs. Sadly the West Pier, where the seaside scenes were filmed, has almost entirely vanished.

Strangely the Downs also have Great War practice trenches on them so we have the situation of two sets of "WW1 trenches", both of which are representations of the real thing but separated by 60 years.

[squirrel]

Watched it again the other night for something to do..................

Chronologically it is out of time - unless I was under the influence of a grape based beverage - the casualties for Paschendaele are on the score board before the battle of the Somme concludes and the song Goodbyeee wasn't written until 1917 IIRC.

Lots of holes to pick on all levels and in the scenes of the senior officers in the ballroom I'm not entirely certain that they had the right characters saying the words quoted.

I did however, like the Church Parade scenes. Very well done I thought the way the hymns and songs were merged and overlapped.

[IanA]

'Goodbyee' - copyright 1917, Francis Day & Hunter.

[redorchestra]

I like the film, but only because I like to hear the songs of the Great War being performed as I never hear them anywhere else.

One thing that annoys me about the film is the way I feel it has usurped the songs of the soldiers and distorted their meanings. In the commentary to the DVD, Richard Attenborough says stuff like 'the soldiers composed these songs to express their hurt, bewilderment and anger at the war', which I sense is somewhat wide of the mark.

I imagine a lot of the words to the parodies were thought up and expanded on by the company joker to get a good laugh while on the march. Also I think even the songs that directly seem to question authority - e.g. 'If you want to find the sergeant major I know where he is - he's miles and miles behind the lines' were sung with tongue in cheek, and probably rarely with genuine hatred of the NCOs and officers. The OWALW interpretation would be that a line like that represented some kind of anarchist spirit bubbling up beneath the surface, whereas to me it suggests nothing more than the age-old British habit of having a humorous pop at authority without seriously questioning it.

He also says of 'Goodbyee' that it showed there was still an 'August 1914' attitude even by that stage of the war, but to me it seems obvious that it is quite an ironic song. I've heard it said that soldiers sang it as a joke about the way officers spoke. I feel that Attenborough seriously underestimates the average British soldiers intelligence and sense of humour.